Ragamuffin Soul - Latest Comments in Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Dave © — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:59:52 -0000

God created us all with at least five senses. When the day comes that I can smell you through my video cam...THEN maybe this online church thing will work. On second thought...perhaps I'd rather do without the smell (no offense Los. I'm sure you smell just fine but I've sat behind some people in my offline church and...well...suffice it to say that they DO smell).

But, seriously, I think the more fundamental question is this. What is a church? What is THE church? Ya gotta answer that question before you can even begin thinking about online vs. offline.

Separate thought, there have been lots of comparisons to the current offline church. Who's to say that is even the right benchmark? Trying to be better than the offline church might be like trying to be better than a pile of crap. I'm not saying it is. But it might be. Right?!

Oh wait...this thread is now 4 days old. That means that we've all moved on to other topics. No time to think. Just comment with top-of-the-mind, reactionary thoughts. Hmmm...maybe the online world is a bit more like the offline world than I thought...this is spooky.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

metromom — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:27:40 -0000

Ok...why do I always show up to the comment party a day late?!! I know ya'll have been waiting for my 2 cents so here it is:

The church exists for a couple reasons...not just one.

1. To lead people to grow. (can't make 'em do it.) Growth happens naturally, and relationships are a primary ingredient for it to happen. Does it happen online or offline? Well relationships become authentic and go deep under one condition (chunks of unhurried time- you define the chunk) Can't happen running in and out of service or small group each week, can't happen logging in and leaving a comment or two here and there. That's why taking a trip or a retreat w/ people takes your relationship to a whole new level almost automatically. You can 'fake yourself' for a few hours, but a few days? Some of the real you has to emerge... So chunks of unhurried time are ESSENTIAL, whether online offline- whatever. There are many church buildings that never provide these conditions for people to grow, just as there are many people who NEVER take advantage of what the building has to offer.

2. The second thing is that the church is Christ's body here on earth. We're supposed to be moving together, insync. Like...we're actually supposed to be doing something on this planet. Is this possible online? Yes. Is it possible offline? Yes. Does it happen often enough in either arena? No.
It can happen online, might require more strategy and require a lot of coordination...the Compassion Bloggers trips are an example of that. It can happen offline as we come together and the local church impacts the life OUTSIDE of its walls. We're all aware that it requires money to create a message and a place where people will come and encounter God (especially in this generation) But the outsider will always see the church as feeding itself when we focus the majority of our efforts and budgets on this. But what can the outsiders say when we're serving them, on their turf? Feeding the hungry. Taking care of the orphans. Sharing the goodnews that they are reconciled to God. It's been done. Jesus paid it all.

I don't care where your church is online/offiline...let's just make it happen- cause the world really needs us to be Jesus on this earth.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Brad Huebert — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:04:47 -0000

In my opinion, the problem with the organic community model on one end, or the affinity model of organized small groups on the other, is that without serious correction, they both cater to the "I hang with people like me who I like who like me back" mentality. Path of least resistance. Which isn't NT church at all.

And while the web thing is a kind of community, and is better than nothing, and maybe better than what people've been getting in church (which is sad), you can't seriously think web community is enough, or be fully what Jesus had in mind, can you?

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

chrishill — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:36:12 -0000

Man, what a great post. I think this series of comments in itself proves that the line between life online and offline is fading. Anyone that denies this and STILL joins this conversation, should reevaluate their statements. The online church is not going to reach everyone. It's not intended to, but it will reach some. Some will call it community. If they do call it community, then it's community. That fact is not contingent upon us to validate.

Side note: I can't wait to answer the question: "What denomination are you?", with "Safari".

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Chris Chowdhury — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:00:41 -0000

We often think "If we build it, they will come" about offline churches - that if it looks good, has enough space, bells and whistles... people will show up. Not usually the case. Something else has to happen. Just like the venue didn't come before the movement in the book of Acts. The Spirit and the "wind" must move people to where the lost can still be found and the redeemed can grow in faith together - online AND offline.

So, I'd be weary of some giddy venture capitalist grabbing a few developers and setting out to start a revolution. Instead, we could pray and pay attention to the revolution(s) already happening and hope for them to spread online.

This is what makes Ragamuffin Soul what it is - it's a movement that started offline (in you, Los) and likely would have found a way regardless of wires, web, and whatever.

Great post! I hope this can happen too!

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

daniel — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:19:25 -0000

i haven't read through all the comments, so someone may have already said this....the definition of church is gathering together. thats what the word means, that's why people called them that, that's why they called themselves that....they gathered together. It’s impossible to gather people in cyberspace.

One othere thought: how can we accomplish most if not any of the NT church commands unless we're together?

Just my thoughts....thanks for bringing this up Carlos...it's something that needs to be talked about/thought through.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Byron — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:45:59 -0000

i have been turning over this thought for about a year now. i truly think it is possible. i see examples of it. The first step, as i understand this more, is being aware and intentional about knowing that this could easily happen with any successful blog. Seth Godin has already coined a name for what is happening online (tribe) and I think this model can reach a lot of people. I do think as an online community develops there needs to be ways to mobilize the tribe offline through offering ways for parts of the tribe to come together and do things to help the community, or offer challenges that get the members of the tribe to connect their online experience with offline impact... just some thoughts. i am processing this stuff too.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Jathaniel Cavitt — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:14:21 -0000

my $.02?? The need for organic community is a big yes. There are one or two churches that exist solely online and reported have a great deal of community that builds among the folks that "go there". One thing I get stuck on is this: One reason we use electronic media, online communities, txt msg's, etc is for its neatness and convenience. Two qualities that are antonyms for life. Life is messy and is rarely convenient. I am curious how conflict is dealt with...we don't grow without working through tension/resistance.

not sure if my input makes sense. But i like your thinking. Outside the four walls is always a good direction for the church to move!

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

BrianD — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:38:07 -0000

Today, I've seen that particular online community minister to me where my offline community has not. Not one phone call, not one email, nothing.

And they say online community isn't valid. What do they know???

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Crystal Renaud — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:18:29 -0000

LifeGroup Online - Wednesdays at 8:30pm (CST) at pinkhairedgirl.net.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Brice Bohrer — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:05:43 -0000

I say lame-o.

Online buddies aren't going to help me move. i need people with trucks in my life.

And someone to call at 1am to come watch my kids as we rush to the hospital.

I meant lazy above also. What did Keith Green teach us..."Jesus rose from the dead, and you, you can't even get out of bed..."

You all can debate discipleship, authenticity, blah, blah...but I emote myself so much better by typing and video...grow up, get yourself out there and face the real world.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Brandy — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:07:53 -0000

I thought about this post this morning.

I have a three year old daughter with special needs. It is tiring, frustrating and lately, very discouraging to watch her struggle. Most people do not understand what the issue is, they see a little girl with "behavioral problems", quite frankly, I am sure there are some who think she is a spoiled brat.

This morning, she was having a meltdown and spirialing into her behaviors. After three long days of this, I was at a breaking point., about to join her in wailing and kicking my legs too. A friend, a person who is around her alot, who knows and who cares, very gently made eye contact and mouthed the words "You are a great mom". So then I started crying for another reason....

I agree that authetncity is sorely lacking in churches. I agree that you can "know" someone for years and not really know them. I agree that online is a good tool and can be someone's best option for church. But I remain firmly convinced that I would not be able to get what I got this morning in a brief moment of kindness online. And I also firmly believe that an online church could enable people to become more isolated than we already are.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Rachel_E — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:15:37 -0000

Chris, amazing insight. If our main goal is community instead of Christ, we've lost it all. We've lost what Church really is.

One of the reasons I personally had trouble finding a small group was that it was just a "Hey, let's do coffee and call it a Bible study" kind of group. That's a social club. I can get that anywhere.

If fixing our eyes on Jesus isn't the main goal, if it's just to feel warm fuzzies and "ooh, I belong!" than we're not really church.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Rachel_E — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:08:53 -0000

I agree. When I first contacted my roommate for college several years ago, we spent the whole summer emailing each other, at least twice, sometimes three times a day. It was awesome. I thought, "This is it! This will be my best friend in college!"

However, when we met face-to-face and actually had to interact for real with each other, it was different. Totally different. She had projected herself as an outgoing, fun-loving person when in fact she was very shy and rarely went out at all.

I also projected someone who I wasn't. I didn't do it on purpose, but I'd get caught up in the moment and say or be someone I wasn't. It was so easy to deceive, to be someone better and funnier and cooler. When she lived with me daily, she saw I wasn't the same.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Albee — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:40:04 -0000

The main problem that I see is that on the internet, people tend to push the person they want to be, not the person they are.

That creates a huge problem for authenticity.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Ben (of BenandJacq) — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:21:21 -0000

Baptism service. Just make sure you take out the water damage insurance on your MacBook pro.

Is that why you've been having all these IT problems lately, Los? You baptize your laptop.

Seriously, though.... How do you take communion? Do baptism? Those things are foundational to the church. And I think that ordained ministers are the ones to administer the sacraments. I'm old school like that.

The comment about online versus offline marriage, though it was brushed off as a sweeping generalization by Los, really hits the nail on the head: the only reason exclusively online church ought to be considered is when offline church is impossible. Online will always be at best a supplemental form of church, in my opinion.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

BrianD — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:51:16 -0000

Chris, I agree with your convictions...I argue that online community is great and can be a wonderful supplement to offline community, but people need that face-to-face, physical interaction. What worked for the church through the 1990s will work for us now and going forward (though I'm sure all the dead saints in Christ would have blogged, Twittered and Facebooked if they had the opportunity in their day). For what it's worth, I wonder if part of this is from folks who can't connect with one another inside the existing infrastructures...and in the process, they're so focused on the community they're not focusing on Who the center of their community should be.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

BrianD — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:33:49 -0000

Love the topic and grateful for the conversation. In fact, I read all the comments before commenting myself.

I am sitting in the cafe of a huge, well-known megachurch. Lots of people here tonight. Lots of good people, Christ-following people, who work and serve here.

But community is next to impossible in that huge church when all you are doing is sitting in a big auditorium with thousands of others. You have to narrow your scope. Small groups are a good way to do that.

But what happens when things aren't working out?

For a long time, church wasn't working out the way I wanted it to. I was hurt and angry. I left and stayed at home, and wandered far away from God (but never far enough to shake Him).

By "random chance" (I don't think it was random at all), I came across another blog. I stuck around, and somehow a virtual community arose there. People fellowshipped in threads, with several side conversations taking place alongside the conversation around the thread's main topic. People connected online, and emailed each other to network and fellowship, and where possible met offline. At that blog (and I've never seen it anywhere else), a small group of people began to pray for others' needs, and others picked up on that. People prayed for each other all over the place, admist all of the other goings on there.

Over time, that blog's focus shifted, but the community remained.

I believe that as surely as there is a God, He used that community to help me work through my hurts and anger, to connect to the body of Christ, and then to connect back into a local church.

Now, my offline church is very important to me, and when I cannot connect with the people there, because of work or other issues, I feel it.

But I will be forever grateful for that online community and that blog, for being there when no one else was, and for how God used them to work in my life.

Even though I've made many mistakes online, I see God's hand at work in my life. I now believe that online community can be a tremendous asset to believers. It can challenge them, encourage them, equip them.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

johngruber — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:51:16 -0000

I also see part of church being communion. Jesus said do this until I come again. Is the experience that same if we are breaking and drinking in front of our webcams and not together as the body of Christ?

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

johngruber — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:47:24 -0000

edit . . . delete.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

jaysten — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:54:54 -0000

Books could be filled on this topic, anyways here's my 2 cents worth:

I lead an online campus for a church. An online campus for a 'real' church with 'real' foundation and walls and what not. With 'real' people for members. We're an extension of that ministry. We are a small community, but none the less we are a community. We do things together. (Define that word as you see fit. ) We explore God's word together, we pray together, we worship together. Things all pleasing to God.

We have a service (call it what you will) every week. Here is what I challenge myself to do:

1. Communicate the Gospel as clearly and accurately as you know how.
2. Make yourself as available to these people as 'technically' possible.
3. Pray like mad for God to pick up the slack.

Along with others in here, I argue that online community is valuable, and an avenue worth driving. I've seen it in action, and seen lives transform because of it.

We exist to engage people that aren't being engaged for the Glory of Jesus Christ. We encourage "real life" Church attendance every week, and assist people in finding a local church when needed.

To suggest God can't move in the online circle is to put up more walls around Him. The Holy Spirit can and does move through online community.

I can't change anybody. Whether on or offline. I'm just as broken and sinful as the next person. Eternal Salvation is what God does. So I'll let him work through me in the online circle.

There are billions of people plugged in to the web that need to hear the message of Christ. So I say flood the internet with God's glory. Pray like mad for his spirit to work in the hearts of the people that are reached. Pray like mad for radical authenticity. Pray like mad for Christ centered relationships to develop. Pray like mad period. God is down with the web.

Until there is an International server meltdown causing the internet to die, fire away for Christ.

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

stephen Stonestreet — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:42:57 -0000

In my opinion, the word "church" needs to be redefined as two or more people gathered together in any place, instead of a building called "church". You should read this: http://www.amazon.com/You-D...

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

Adrienne — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:05:48 -0000

I'm sorry, I don't think about this, but you've got me eagerly anticipating the first angry screamer in our small group...maybe Alyssa will go into labor there???

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

jaysten — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:04:12 -0000

exactly

Re: Welcome to First United Church Of 192.168.0.1

jbstansel — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:02:17 -0000

that's all good but it can't stop there. we need to be physically connected. like I said before, i can't help but think online church shouldn't be anything more than supplementary