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Or maybe I just have trust issues ;)
I was comparing my online communities to my real life communities and how relationship work in both cases. And I keep coming back to after so long (for me) the online relationship can no longer progress and continue to grow with out face to face connection.
Just skimmin' the comments it looks like the line in the sand may be drawn by gender.
But does your church facilitate this on the weekends?
When it does leadership training does it require a 100% in both of these areas?
Does the church have to make all these relationships happen to be a church? Or can it just teach that they need to exist? Can it be the place that individuals make these connections, and realize the value in them, and then express them in the best way they can?
People don't have these intimate connections to their entire church body as a whole - but they happen as people get to know one another.
When no one knows who you are, it's quite easy to spill your crap out on the table. And I think that two important parts of vunerability are trust and risk. You have to trust the people you are being vulnerable with and you must be willing to risk your "image" or whatever dumb things we mark as important. I'm not sure if either of these are possible in an online format like they are in personal relationships.
cd
Mainly because of the judgement they would feel and experience. Through the Live Prayer we offer during our live experiences we have hundreds of people coming for help, to share their hurts, to get prayer for things that if they mentioned in a normal church, they would instantly be categorized as "one of those people."
The opportunity of being online, and being able to be anonymous is that people can share and find help on their terms (as it should be) instead of on ours.
Are people only allowed to be vulnerable on our terms?
I think judgement is a huge part of it, and possibly the fear of rejection and such. Also, I think the Live Prayer deals and the online church in general is a great tool and platform to use to reach people, but I believe it ultimately needs to lead to real people being with real people, living life together.
My problem is not with the idea of an Online church, its the problem of anonymity. Anonymity leads to the constant opportunity to blow smoke.
Think about the people in our small groups who don't trust and aren't vulnerable. They usually don't have people who are investing in a real way in their lives. As in, someone isn't seeking out being with them or really knowing them on a day to day way, where they can learn how they act and how they live. That seems to be the one hole in it. You can't be with someone in this way online.
As long as the anonymity is fleeting and leads to real relationships that are focused on growth in Christ, then so be it on their own terms.
The only thing I would respond with is that you don't blame the house you are in when someone isn't vulnerable or authentic during small group. It is that persons issue.
Same with online church. People gather in your home, they gather at your church on the weekends, and the ARE gathering online. There are obvious differences between all three and what you would do there - but people can chose how they act in any of them.
Anonymity is only an issue because it makes us feel out of control. I would challenge that we don't need to be in control to minister to someone, or for someone to be honest. Regardless of whether we know their name, it all has to do with them and their willingness to engage - regards of "where they gather."
However, I don't agree that anonymity is a control issue. I think its a trust issue. Anonymity allows the anonymous to not have to trust anyone. Sure, there is a surface level trust, but there is no risk involved in being open. Worst case senario, they have to avoid some emails or leave a certain site.
Anonymity may be a control issue for the person being anonymous. They want to be in control, so deciding not to trust people and deciding to not allow people to fully know them puts them in control. Just a thought.
I think this is your point so I think I am agreeing with you.
I've said it before but I think it's worth repeating here. This is one of the things I LOVE about North Point's strategy. It starts with a basic recognition that it is about relationships and continues by trying to create safe environments for each stage of the relationship, from "street" (online communities such as this -- even though I know this isn't a NPMI ministry as such -- and the BMP), to "foyer" (Sunday church), to "living room" and then "kitchen" (in most cases, literally in the kitchen).
Can online communities by-pass that process and jump straight to the kitchen? For some people, yeah it just might. But for others, it probably won't work too well.
To me, the important thing is knowing where your particular online community fits in. Is it aiming to be a "street" level ministry, attempting to form basic connections for those who are scared to connect (I would pin this site into that category)? Will it shoot for the "kitchen" level ministry and help people be accountable, etc? Or will it fall somewhere in-between. Like most ministries, the danger is in trying to be all things to all people.
And for what it's worth, I don't attend North Point so I'm not a homer.
2. Why are so many people more worried about holding everyone else accountable? I understand that's A role of the church, but it certainly not the LARGEST/ONLY one. Methinks people like the "judgement" part of their job even though that's not really their job.
3. A relationship is what you make of it. Online, penpals, or sitting next to one another on the train. Reach people where they are. If they are here, in the web, then that is where you will reach them.
;)
And yes, not only is it possible, it is happening. What is most exciting is that as we wake up to that fact, and can start acting in partnership - with purpose - what will be possible.
I'm in.
Online no one could read my face to know when I am saying I am fine when I am not.
Online, no one can see in real time how my children act and see how I am contributing to it.
Online, you can skip a screamer, but you miss the opportunity to be forced to deal with hurtful people because they are in your small group(ministry, etc)
Online, you can even pretend to be real. In real life, you present evidence.
An online church makes me sad...and makes me even more sad that for some people, this is their best option. I have lived in a town where I honestly can't recommend any churches to those who still live there. Online is better than nothing- but IMO, should not be the end goal.
Exactly.
I think we are going to have to move away from broad generalizations in how community happens online or off to see what is really possible, and what to do with these new opportunities.
I see WAY too many people coming in and out of my church without engaging one bit.
Brandy.
I could take every one of your statements and turn them on their head.
All of your online issues are happening everyday in offline community.
Just sayin.
Good thoughts though.
Obviously I think offline church works.
I work in one.
But I also think anline would work.
It just needs someone smarter than I to figure it out.
Great stuff.
however, i do think this can work. basically, if there is a need - and it seems like there is - then it can work, we have to make it work. it's not for everyone tho. i personally prefer the regular american church, even with it's walls (fig and lit), fakeness, and attitude, because i've been lucky to find a handful of genuine people who know and love me for me (and vice versa). but i know that's not always the case, and it wasn't easy for me to get there.
so yeah, to answer your questions - i think it's possible and yes think about this stuff (lately).
good post, los.
I encountered a time recently when our church family sacrificed their time and effort in a physical, tangible way to help us in a time of need. That simply can't happen by online interaction alone.
cd
So I see the face to face stuff being really important.
So what if you have monthly gatherings in your town with your church?
And where in scripture does it talk about the need to be in physical contact?
Great stuff guys.
Keep being open minded as we discuss.
Remember that FOR YOU it is important that YOU have face to face contact.
I don't agree that it is important nor essential for everyone.
At least in a "small group type" environment.
Try to book of James or Hebrew 10:25
This would be your assumption that "together means "physical".
im certainly not saying i have a theological issue with online church but i think it is a vital that the online church world works in partnership with local Christ centered community.
yes, God is obviously using the online world to do a new thing & its so cool to watch it unfold, especially here in the ragamuffin soul community, but i think it could be a dangerous path to walk down with the intention of calling this "church" as an exclusive term without encouraging & valuing a face to face community of believers as well.
I definitely dont think ragamuffin has come even remotely close to being what I see an online church being.
And in Acts there was no internet.
So of'course they were physically together.
I think I see it as the gathering place for a community of believers and taking it offline HAS to happen but I don't think offline has the be the primary way one communes.
I love your thoughts!!!
When, online or offline, is anyone really truly comforatble with being vulnerable?
I would rather focus on transparency or "willingness to share" then vulnerability.
It's true that we learn and grow in our moments of weakness, but I strongly think that true vulnerability is something shared/experienced in the very smallest of small groups, specifically between 2 people.
Ragamuffinsoul.com is a community no doubt about it. I love being a fringe member of it, but I don't know that someone who makes a comment on a post will ever be completely vulnerable to anything, maybe because of the anonymity.
I do agree however, that a continued interaction in a community such as this creates moments of openness and trasparency, that in a lot of offline situations can't happen.
good post.
I think the video conversations that I have on a weekly basis take it deeper than the comment section of a blog.
That is for sure.
I also remember the church having this SAME conversation about video venues and such
This is the same as an church that uses a building to gather people. THe intimate conversations don't happen in the sanctuary or lobby, but in a coffee shop some other time of the week.
Would an online marriage be just as good as a flesh-and-blood one?
What about on-line parents? Is it comparable to living in the same house- or city for that matter?
In the military we were able to video-chat with family. It was good but not nearly as awesome as it was to see them in person.
I agree, connection can happen online. I just wonder if we're missing out on the intangible that comes when we live our lives in proximity to one another.
Thanks for tossing this out there...
God has called a married couple to have a real life sexual relationship.
There is that ESSENTIAL part of a marraige that can not be had online.
I guess I can't find, in scripture, any need for PHYSICAL interaction for a church to be a church.
Life change and making disciples are the goal.
I see that happening online all the time.
And if I could get my wife pregnant online, then yea. I think she would be down with online marriage.
;)
Just kidding.
But, seriously, I think the more fundamental question is this. What is a church? What is THE church? Ya gotta answer that question before you can even begin thinking about online vs. offline.
Separate thought, there have been lots of comparisons to the current offline church. Who's to say that is even the right benchmark? Trying to be better than the offline church might be like trying to be better than a pile of crap. I'm not saying it is. But it might be. Right?!
Oh wait...this thread is now 4 days old. That means that we've all moved on to other topics. No time to think. Just comment with top-of-the-mind, reactionary thoughts. Hmmm...maybe the online world is a bit more like the offline world than I thought...this is spooky.
When my friend Laura's sewer pipe broke, she didn't go online to blog to someone across the country. She called our pastor who called a plummer in the church who fixed her pipe.
When I moved this past summer, I blogged about it, but the people who made a difference were the ones in my church who showed up at 7 in the morning and hauled my stuff in 112 degree heat.
Is making authentic church community hard? Yes. But it's worth fighting for and striving for because it's real. It's real hands and real feet and real faces. Yes, people can be fake to your face, they can play like everything is okay. But they can do the exact same thing online. I don't know if the people who post on my blog are actually struggling with what they say they are. I have to take a leap of faith, bigger than if I meet you in person because I have no background, no nonverbals, no tangible emotions.
I love this community, I love reading blogs and twitter and keeping up with people online. But truth is, if I were gone, would you notice? Would you call me and ask what's up? Would you do like my home team did and knock on Lea's door just to make sure she's okay because she said she'd be there last night and didn't show and we got worried so we gave up our Saturday to find her because we care enough about her to DO something, not just say something.
I only wish most people had this same experience.
And I LOVE that.
I don't even think that would have to disappear.
I think that stuff would breed offline.
And again. Ragamuffin Soul is in no way shape or form an example of what I think this concept would look like.
Also as I was reflecting on this topic it made me think do I neglect the people directly around me in favor of spending time with my online relationships which are easier and require less work? I realized I spend WAY more time talking to people I've never met than making sure my neighbor who's struggling with cancer is okay. Conviction for me. I'm literally neglecting my neighbor in favor for people who are less messy.
I think online community - whatever shape it takes (be it church or non-church interest groups) - is fantastic and I think some level of authenticity and genuine interaction can be achieved. But when the "rubber meets the road," nothing can take the place of tangible human interaction. And, Los is saying - I think - that this interaction can grow off-line.
I've been involved with a non-church interest board for about two years and I've met a few of the folks over the last year and a half. My wife has been active in a chat network for about 15 years and has met people from that group twice.
She and I met online 11 years ago (we've been married 10 years this past October). We've met people from the chat network and room she and I first got to know each other in on a few occasions.
With each of these interactions, it really meant something to actually meet and get to know people we knew from our online experience. My wife says that this human contact enriches the online post-face-to-face encounters and I agree.
In an earlier post, I referred to a situation where the body of Christ rallied around us in a time of need.
About two months ago, I was laid up on the couch with an infection in one of my legs, and one of our friends was concerned it could be highly contagious. Turned out it wasn't, but out of love, she and another friend wound up rallying another seven people - including some church leadership - to show up at our house after 10 p.m. and clean or keep me company.
We'd been feeling somewhat disconnected and out of touch with our church family, but those feelings dissolved instantly and I believe the experience bound us all closer together.
Sacrificial love and service cannot be acted out online, but the relationships through which these actions can be carried out can be started and enhanced online.
In both online or face to face interaction individuals must decide how authentic, open and real they want to be. Because of the limits of the format, online relationships take more time and effort to gain the relational context face to face interactions provide through physical means.
Both still require a next step to take a relationship beyond the surface and ultimately, that is where I believe God wants us to pursue. Doing that online simply requires more effort and diligence in an area people rarely pursue in more organic and simpler formats.
I said that to say this. An online church will work. There is a need just like there is a need to have tv church. This is the 21st century and the way things are done are changing. It doesn't have to work for all people, but if it brings one person closer to God then in the end it served the purpose that is set forth for all churches.
I don't know.
I think you can only love to the extent you are known... I think that online "community" in many ways is faux community... we don't ever really become fully known. We have more opportunity to present ourselves as we'd like to be rather than how we really are.
I just finished a video chat with one of my oldest friends and we talked about some pretty sensitive stuff but it would have been so much better to be in two chairs facing each other. The video served our needs but it was not what face to face would have been. I see on line church much the same way acceptable, workable but not necessarily the best for "personal" community.
It is just as easy to disengage in off line church as it is with on line church, so I don't really get all the concern over accountability and vulnerability and all that.
Worry about yourself and putting yourself out there to connect with others (no matter where they stand) in an effort to be agents of change for the kingdom.
what denomination is this online community that you speak of.
jk.
Maybe the geek in me is just overthinking this?
Similarly, in an online community, there is room for honesty that is honestly not found in many other places, there is room for deep sharing and conversation. But that, in itself, is a poor substitute for gathering around a table and dining with friends, or gathering a night or two a week for communal worship. Singing together, baptizing, taking the Eucharist, marriages, these all need to be celebrated in a physical community.
It takes more work with significantly more risk to do this in person than online, which I suspect is part of the draw to these online communities.
wingnut
Jon.
taking the existing model of the brick and mortar church and demanding that the online church look exactly like it, to me is going backwards; instead, shouldn't we begin with making the online church a community that blazes the light of Christ by using online resources to make it as bright as possible?
as i first learned at the austin stone community church, community doesn't happen b/c you are trying to create community--it comes as the natural result of people on mission together; therefore, if our great mission as a Church online is being the hope of this world, community will naturally follow, or organically happen.
and it certainly is happening.
No, don't leave the web. Yes, encourage offline connection.
If online is all you have....GO FOR IT. My online relationships are so amazing to me and would fly out to someone in a heartbeat if they needed me. Our hearts are exposed. But, we are not anonymous either.
So, if someone needs to be vulnerable and honest and can trust this place that they have come....again, GO FOR IT.
Wish it were clear cut and black or white, but it's not.
Great stuff though. I truly wish in the part of the South where I am that people would be the real deal. Its a frustrating thing.
P.S. 192.168.0.1 is not a publically routable IP Address. In other words, it's a private IP that can't exist on the Internet. I thought I would make that distinction since you want a public, open community instead of a private one. :P
BUT...I agree with the both/and scenario in a sense. I really cannot imagine a church that exists solely online. What an awful community! To only be able to read what a person is going through? I'd much rather be there with them, and honestly I think common sense answers this question.
Real community happens in just that....reality. Online community is but a shadow of the real thing. I think we are meant to experience church with each other in a real, tangible way. I want to be able to laugh, cry, dance, sing, and live life with people in a way that isn't behind a computer screen. And I think anything other than that is cheating yourself out of some real fellowship.
On the other hand, I think online church could be an -ok- supplement to real church. Can you imagine only being able to have church online, and then being able to step into reality and experience church face to face with other believers? It would be overwhelming! Yes, there is no substitute for face-to-face church and community.
Also, just because the same problems exist in both the offline and online church doesn't logically mean that they are equal. I see the problem being that you can't really, definitively solve the problems with the offline church that are glaring you in the face.
Is it ideal? No. I should go to a physical building and shake hands with my neighbors. But I don't.
However, when I did got to a building, I didn't talk about it. I just didn't. But this site, and the sites I link to because of it, I talk about non-stop to my offline community of friends and co-workers. I wasn't comfortable saying to a co-worker, "my pastor made this great point last Sunday", but I am totally comfortable saying "look at this awesome post". And sometimes, I have told someone about a funny post that has nothing to do with "religion", but I know they read the other posts as well. One of these people is an atheist.
And in the big scheme of it all, I NEVER would have sponsored a child in Uganda because of something someone said in a 15 minute speech at a church building, but here at my online church, I saw how important it is that we love the whole world and help the whole world and I sponsor. I saw it for days on end through the videos and it was so in depth.
Is online church ideal? No. Is online church happening? You get your sweet booty. And I for one am changed because of it.
Cool thing about the internet and ragamuffin's spot on it is that people actually treat it like a real space. I think it's very possible because of how unique RSoul is.
I'm a lead worshipper at my church and i don't know everyone who attends the Journey so i don't think the disconnect factor among "members/attenders" is as big of deal as we think.
I love the idea of being able to come home one night an know that there will be a community waiting for me in my own house to encourage and build up that is consisted of people around the nation! maybe this is a step towards the unity the church has needed for a long time?
I am concerned in the 21st Century that the hunger for "authentic community" has surpassed the hunger for God. Either way...community or disicipleship...your #1 opinion is thought-provoking...and disturbing. I see where you are going with it...but is virtual community...actual "authentic" community? Also who gets to define what "authentic community" actually looks like? On the other side of the coin...can discipleship...and exampled in the Scriptures...really take place with only online communication? I believe it's possible...as Paul created very much community and discipleship via written correspondence...bu there was also direct human interaction.
Good post...much to think about...much to consider. In the end...I'm still not sure "authentic community" can happen without actual physical interaction at some point. Then again...maybe I just need a hug. :-)
One of the reasons I personally had trouble finding a small group was that it was just a "Hey, let's do coffee and call it a Bible study" kind of group. That's a social club. I can get that anywhere.
If fixing our eyes on Jesus isn't the main goal, if it's just to feel warm fuzzies and "ooh, I belong!" than we're not really church.
Best experience I've ever had in a small group setting, especially in a mega church.
I felt compelled to be more precise in my prayer request because I had limited characters in the chat. People put up scripture & we had to look it up. I actually opened my bible & looked it up. That was a first in a small group. Usually just the leader did.
I found a whole new level of involvement & responsiblity. Love it.
I lead an online campus for a church. An online campus for a 'real' church with 'real' foundation and walls and what not. With 'real' people for members. We're an extension of that ministry. We are a small community, but none the less we are a community. We do things together. (Define that word as you see fit. ) We explore God's word together, we pray together, we worship together. Things all pleasing to God.
We have a service (call it what you will) every week. Here is what I challenge myself to do:
1. Communicate the Gospel as clearly and accurately as you know how.
2. Make yourself as available to these people as 'technically' possible.
3. Pray like mad for God to pick up the slack.
Along with others in here, I argue that online community is valuable, and an avenue worth driving. I've seen it in action, and seen lives transform because of it.
We exist to engage people that aren't being engaged for the Glory of Jesus Christ. We encourage "real life" Church attendance every week, and assist people in finding a local church when needed.
To suggest God can't move in the online circle is to put up more walls around Him. The Holy Spirit can and does move through online community.
I can't change anybody. Whether on or offline. I'm just as broken and sinful as the next person. Eternal Salvation is what God does. So I'll let him work through me in the online circle.
There are billions of people plugged in to the web that need to hear the message of Christ. So I say flood the internet with God's glory. Pray like mad for his spirit to work in the hearts of the people that are reached. Pray like mad for radical authenticity. Pray like mad for Christ centered relationships to develop. Pray like mad period. God is down with the web.
Until there is an International server meltdown causing the internet to die, fire away for Christ.
I am sitting in the cafe of a huge, well-known megachurch. Lots of people here tonight. Lots of good people, Christ-following people, who work and serve here.
But community is next to impossible in that huge church when all you are doing is sitting in a big auditorium with thousands of others. You have to narrow your scope. Small groups are a good way to do that.
But what happens when things aren't working out?
For a long time, church wasn't working out the way I wanted it to. I was hurt and angry. I left and stayed at home, and wandered far away from God (but never far enough to shake Him).
By "random chance" (I don't think it was random at all), I came across another blog. I stuck around, and somehow a virtual community arose there. People fellowshipped in threads, with several side conversations taking place alongside the conversation around the thread's main topic. People connected online, and emailed each other to network and fellowship, and where possible met offline. At that blog (and I've never seen it anywhere else), a small group of people began to pray for others' needs, and others picked up on that. People prayed for each other all over the place, admist all of the other goings on there.
Over time, that blog's focus shifted, but the community remained.
I believe that as surely as there is a God, He used that community to help me work through my hurts and anger, to connect to the body of Christ, and then to connect back into a local church.
Now, my offline church is very important to me, and when I cannot connect with the people there, because of work or other issues, I feel it.
But I will be forever grateful for that online community and that blog, for being there when no one else was, and for how God used them to work in my life.
Even though I've made many mistakes online, I see God's hand at work in my life. I now believe that online community can be a tremendous asset to believers. It can challenge them, encourage them, equip them.
And they say online community isn't valid. What do they know???
Is that why you've been having all these IT problems lately, Los? You baptize your laptop.
Seriously, though.... How do you take communion? Do baptism? Those things are foundational to the church. And I think that ordained ministers are the ones to administer the sacraments. I'm old school like that.
The comment about online versus offline marriage, though it was brushed off as a sweeping generalization by Los, really hits the nail on the head: the only reason exclusively online church ought to be considered is when offline church is impossible. Online will always be at best a supplemental form of church, in my opinion.
That creates a huge problem for authenticity.
However, when we met face-to-face and actually had to interact for real with each other, it was different. Totally different. She had projected herself as an outgoing, fun-loving person when in fact she was very shy and rarely went out at all.
I also projected someone who I wasn't. I didn't do it on purpose, but I'd get caught up in the moment and say or be someone I wasn't. It was so easy to deceive, to be someone better and funnier and cooler. When she lived with me daily, she saw I wasn't the same.
I have a three year old daughter with special needs. It is tiring, frustrating and lately, very discouraging to watch her struggle. Most people do not understand what the issue is, they see a little girl with "behavioral problems", quite frankly, I am sure there are some who think she is a spoiled brat.
This morning, she was having a meltdown and spirialing into her behaviors. After three long days of this, I was at a breaking point., about to join her in wailing and kicking my legs too. A friend, a person who is around her alot, who knows and who cares, very gently made eye contact and mouthed the words "You are a great mom". So then I started crying for another reason....
I agree that authetncity is sorely lacking in churches. I agree that you can "know" someone for years and not really know them. I agree that online is a good tool and can be someone's best option for church. But I remain firmly convinced that I would not be able to get what I got this morning in a brief moment of kindness online. And I also firmly believe that an online church could enable people to become more isolated than we already are.
Online buddies aren't going to help me move. i need people with trucks in my life.
And someone to call at 1am to come watch my kids as we rush to the hospital.
I meant lazy above also. What did Keith Green teach us..."Jesus rose from the dead, and you, you can't even get out of bed..."
You all can debate discipleship, authenticity, blah, blah...but I emote myself so much better by typing and video...grow up, get yourself out there and face the real world.
not sure if my input makes sense. But i like your thinking. Outside the four walls is always a good direction for the church to move!
One othere thought: how can we accomplish most if not any of the NT church commands unless we're together?
Just my thoughts....thanks for bringing this up Carlos...it's something that needs to be talked about/thought through.
So, I'd be weary of some giddy venture capitalist grabbing a few developers and setting out to start a revolution. Instead, we could pray and pay attention to the revolution(s) already happening and hope for them to spread online.
This is what makes Ragamuffin Soul what it is - it's a movement that started offline (in you, Los) and likely would have found a way regardless of wires, web, and whatever.
Great post! I hope this can happen too!
Side note: I can't wait to answer the question: "What denomination are you?", with "Safari".
And while the web thing is a kind of community, and is better than nothing, and maybe better than what people've been getting in church (which is sad), you can't seriously think web community is enough, or be fully what Jesus had in mind, can you?
The church exists for a couple reasons...not just one.
1. To lead people to grow. (can't make 'em do it.) Growth happens naturally, and relationships are a primary ingredient for it to happen. Does it happen online or offline? Well relationships become authentic and go deep under one condition (chunks of unhurried time- you define the chunk) Can't happen running in and out of service or small group each week, can't happen logging in and leaving a comment or two here and there. That's why taking a trip or a retreat w/ people takes your relationship to a whole new level almost automatically. You can 'fake yourself' for a few hours, but a few days? Some of the real you has to emerge... So chunks of unhurried time are ESSENTIAL, whether online offline- whatever. There are many church buildings that never provide these conditions for people to grow, just as there are many people who NEVER take advantage of what the building has to offer.
2. The second thing is that the church is Christ's body here on earth. We're supposed to be moving together, insync. Like...we're actually supposed to be doing something on this planet. Is this possible online? Yes. Is it possible offline? Yes. Does it happen often enough in either arena? No.
It can happen online, might require more strategy and require a lot of coordination...the Compassion Bloggers trips are an example of that. It can happen offline as we come together and the local church impacts the life OUTSIDE of its walls. We're all aware that it requires money to create a message and a place where people will come and encounter God (especially in this generation) But the outsider will always see the church as feeding itself when we focus the majority of our efforts and budgets on this. But what can the outsiders say when we're serving them, on their turf? Feeding the hungry. Taking care of the orphans. Sharing the goodnews that they are reconciled to God. It's been done. Jesus paid it all.
I don't care where your church is online/offiline...let's just make it happen- cause the world really needs us to be Jesus on this earth.
I've seen large community leaders use their "followers" to gain things like lunch - babysitters - places to stay for vacations - etc...
All nice gestures by the adoring fans but I wonder if the same requests were put out there by other members of their "community" if they would be as willing to bend over backwards to help?
It's almost like a prosperity blog of sorts sometimes... like how can it benefit me - the operator? That's how I see some of them... and I just don't know how well that'd translate to a "church" on the web.
May as well be broadcasting on Public TV at 3:00 AM with the prosperity gospel at that point.
That was the most brilliant rubbish I have heard all night.
But brilliant none the less.
The reality is that online community is here to stay. It is a culture shift that isn't going anywhere soon. Why shouldn't the church be a part of it, and leverage it for redemptive, disciple-making, relational purposes?
And a screwed up sarcastic diva i am.
trying to work on it.
All I am saying is I wonder how much of the upward love for the operator would really flow sideways within an online community.
But you must know what I am saying is true - methinks the Los doth protest too much...
But the response is kind of exactly what I am talking about and it actually makes the "community" look and act more like a "club."
For example - why does the operator of an online community go through and remove a bunch of the people he follows in his community? Were they not cool enough? Not part of the chosen few?
I mean - every church has it - online or offline - the "pastor's circle" or "ministry elite" that not everybody is welcomed into.
And what I am seeing - at least from what I have really studied the past few months in regards to online communities, social marketing and how the church uses it - is that it is benefiting the guys running it the most.
It's just an observation. Not meant to inflame or attack. But if I went back through the months and months of comments I saw - and then followed back through the profiles of the people reaping benefits - the majority of those people work for the church. And I am not saying there is anything wrong with that.
It's just curious. That's all. For me at least - I'd love to hear from the guy who works 50-60 hours in a factory or retail or fast food or some totally non-churchy job somewhere who is reaping benefits from an online community.
Transparent. That's what I'm being. Looking for truth. That's all.
I am someone that told you that this community here at Ragamuffinsoul is my "church". For me personally, stumbling upon this blog about 2 years ago really did change my life and through it I am now talking to God about 1,000% more than I used to and witnessing that to people in my offline world.
Is it ideal? No. I should go to a physical building and shake hands with my neighbors. But I don't.
However, when I did got to a building, I didn't talk about it. I just didn't. But this site, and the sites I link to because of it, I talk about non-stop to my offline community of friends and co-workers. I wasn't comfortable saying to a co-worker, "my pastor made this great point last Sunday", but I am totally comfortable saying "look at this awesome post". And sometimes, I have told someone about a funny post that has nothing to do with "religion", but I know they read the other posts as well. One of these people is an atheist.
And in the big scheme of it all, I NEVER would have sponsored a child in Uganda because of something someone said in a 15 minute speech at a church building, but here at my online church, I saw how important it is that we love the whole world and help the whole world and I sponsor. I saw it for days on end through the videos and it was so in depth.
Is online church ideal? No. Is online church happening? You get your sweet booty. And I for one am changed because of it.
Thanks Cindi.
you can find the dirty and shameless things about online community if that is what you're looking for... just like in any brick-and-mortar.
or, you can find things that would completely rock your world, if you but give it a chance.
we need the somewhat negative comments just as much as the positive, but if you stop there, you're toast.
In other words, I just wrote three comments on this post that, had we been in the same room, you would not have heard.
Now if I could find a way to be a pastor and support my family and do that... totally sweet!
22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
Maybe the "online church" is another one of those "all things"