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But what about the other 300 or 400 people whose church experience was affected today at Sandals by the loud rattle? or the crying? or the squirming? .... As one of them I can tell you I got virtually nothing out of the service today because of it. I was distracted, annoyed, worried (both for Matt and the people sitting closer than I was to the commotion).
That's the problem with the "church is about me" and "no one's gonna tell me I have to send my kid(s) to the nursery" mentality. It would be a fine mentality if it affected no on else, but as we saw today it affects many people's experience, not the least of which is the pastor.
Case in point. Strong christian family with a 17 month old also. In trying to get them to Sandals I figured "Parents Night Out" (GO Janie again!) would be a good start. I was told, my wife won't leave our kid with somone we don't know. Now remember, there are people who can't let their kids sleep in their own rooms and we expect them to seperate at church to people they know very little about?
Now, if I have to take the kid to church with me. I either sit in the last row or stand near a back door. If the kid won't stay in my arms, then we are done. I'm not gona be the clog pounding dad following his kid all over the back open area either.
Let me go even farther. This plays into the area of Church UP-Down'er. You know, the people who got there after the service started but walked down the middle isle and found the open front row. And then got up for a bathroom break halfway through and then maybe left a little early. Wait, that sound like some of Sandals staff. Coming in late because they were working the coffee bar, leave early to copy CD's or be an usher. Lets all sit in back! I'm not against the people who do the work. I'm not against getting up and down (well except going up in a southern baptist church, I never went to the bathroom unless it was "Touching cotton.")
In general, I think I do like rules about not bringing kids into adult worship. But, I think the way that is worded and presented is VERY important. Words are powerful and help define culture. The "rule" should tell the reason why in a convincing and loving way. Any sign or communication about who is allowed in the worship center is one of people's earliest impressions about your church, so I must be crafted well.
Maybe we try our best on wording stuff like this and then test it with a "focus group" to tell us how we are doing. If that sounds too hard... then maybe kids in the worship service aren't such a big problem.
Ref: IKEA's use of signage/wording and "The Tipping Point"
So, how do you go about tactfully telling these people that they need to stop letting their child go nuts during a service? We're a smaller congregation so I know these people really well and don't want to damage the relationship.
Any suggestions?
I was thinking of making a "child care IS available! RIGHT NOW!" PPT slide, then everytime a kid made a fuss during the service our video guy could display it onscreen.
my church puts a ton of money and energy into our children' program. and they are there in order to teach children about Christ in a way that THEY can have the opportunity to understand. they are loved. they are secure. and most importantly... they are out of your HAIR so you as the parent have the same opportunity to learn and grow. not only are noisy children a distraction to you they are a distraction to the people around you... and obviously the pastor.
everyone should have a certain level of courtesy and well, common-sense, not to bring your child into a church service if you know they are going to be a distraction from what is going on during service. children are loved... and i know Jesus said, "let the little children come to me" but they can go to Him in children's church too. :)
ok then.
(if you are new to the church or have a child with a disability then i understand if you don't feel comfortable with leaving your child in childcare)
Story about this type of situation ... when I was around 5 years old I remember the pastor kicking some pre-teen boys out of a church service. Obviously since I still remember it to this day it had an effect on me and probably every other child/parent in the room. I knew to NEVER even think about being disruptive in church.
I believe this issue needs to be addressed if it's in the middle of a service and someone is being distracting. But there also need to be preventative measures in place in order to keep as much peace as possible.
(As a teacher, I sometimes have parental/sibling interruptions in my classroom. I refuse to continue teaching until they be quiet or leave.)
Now this only works when your members have enough sense to take misbehaving kids out to the "cry room" or hall. Yes, we have a room for cranky kids that has the service piped in over some speakers.
Now for the call out...I'm not sure how i feel about that. The communications major in me says, a seasoned speaker just needs to just "drive on" through it. Now, having not been there I have no idea how severe the behavior was or how long it carried on for. I would think a church member would have mentioned something before the preacher had too.
(thanks Jaime & Poice Man for the love!)
Lots of different perspectives to consider here.
I can certainly understand Matt's frustration. Knowing Matt I would guess that he was more frustrated about the distraction factor than he was about being interrupted.
From the mom's perspective... no one likes getting called out, whether we deserve it or not. I'm not sure any of us have been in her shoes... being called on the carpet in front of 700 - 800 people. That can't feel good. I'd be shocked if she came back.
I am not sure what I would've done if I were in Matt's shoes. Back in the day when I was a worship leader, I think I would've shot some looks at other staff members in the crowd in the hopes that they would handle it rather than bring the service to a halt and call her out from the stage.
Who knows, though. Tough calls, and really tough spot for Matt and the mom.
At one level you wonder why parents would bring their child into the service and then proceed to sit on the front row...it's like your just looking for trouble with a toddler on the front row.
And then you have the great irony of 'we love your kids' so much that we don't want you to ever have them around us :) ...just kidding, but it is a sweet irony.
And for the record, I had a friend who was a missionary in Africa for a few years. He said that these were outdoor services, and kids would run up and down and all over the place the entire two-hour sermon. Just a matter of cultural perspective, I guess.
This give children the experience of sitting in a worship service and teaches them not only about God, but how to worship, how to behave in the service etc.
I am even further convinced that parents need their own time too. For one, many of these parents cannot focus on the message if their child is in their lap. Further the people around them have a hard time focusing when a child is disruptive.
If we allow children to sit in the service and disrupt - then we could very well be distracting someone from hearing the gospel and miss the encounter that God had planned for them that day.
At my church we do have children in service from time to time - for one reason or other a parent decides to keep their kids with them. If the child becomes disruptive, ideally the parent takes them out of the service - which again is a major distraction for the parent - but hopefully minimizes the impact on the others in the room.
In the case that a parent doesn't take the child out - our security and safety team members are instructed to help the parent understand to remove the child. In reality our safety team just asks them to move to the cry room. The cry room is equipped with video feeds and audio of the service.
So far we have not encountered a parent that refused to remove their kid - but if that day comes --- it might be interesting to watch how our guys handle it.
We have some great guys on the safety and security teams - I believe all of them are very caring and committed to being discreet and helpful more than forceful. But the sheer size of some of these guys is pretty intimidating at best. So they are pretty effective by just having to ask someone to step out.
I guess the day they have to forcefully remove someone is the day we call up the police and ask to borrow their Tazers.
LOL - jk on the Tazer part.
:)
Until the baby-shrieking starts.
Our new one (2-1/2 adoption, first time at church, home a week) gets restless, so my wife heads out the hall. Sadly, a few others with poor social skills could care less about the pre-service announcement about kids (we love 'em, but don't let 'em interrupt) and let the poop-demons cry and wiggle without a care in the world. Aigh!
The loudest, and most extended, fit comes as the pastor is leading new believers through their prayer of salvation.
Single the numskulls out and make 'em feel embarrassed. There are no rational excuses. Period. PERIOD.
Selfish. Ignorant. And Lazy.
When I was in Mexico as a missionary we had a rather large church for the area that could fit about 1000 people. Kids were nuts all the time, dogs were walking through the service, birds flying around..ect. It used to drive me crazy till one day I realized like someone else noted that the first century church, the sermon on the mount, peeps were probably all over the place. I don't think you want to foster that enviroment, but at the same time we have to remain a bit flexible.
We have definitely created a pretty ordered church atmosphere in North America and I hope we don't hold that up as the highest form of church. And having seperate services is just one part of that model. Some churches hold a high value on families experiencing the entire service together and plan for that.. Different strokes.
Then there are some people that are actually selfish and clueless and should take their kids out.. No doubt about that.
Do you guys have a moms room or space?
And the bass player decides to unplug straight from his bass... causing a huge KA-CLACK thru his bass rig and the nice 18 inch subwoofers out front. Faux pas...
Hey! I've got 6 kids, who have all spent a lot of time in church, and i can't remember ever having to be told to remove my unchained melodizer from service. Now I have a grandson that goes with us every couple of weeks and I never (I really mean NEVER!) take him into service.
It just takes away from everybody's chance to connect. Some folks might say it's a double standard, how we want young couples in church but we don't want their kids. But there is a time and place for kids to be in a service and it's not until they can behave and be quiet. Like about age 25, maybe?
So, the choice is obvious! Submit to those who know what’s important and put the needs of the many above the needs of the one. Leave now, for the sake of peace.
Grandpa "G" -> Out ->
To back Matt up, it is really hard to focus during service (from the stage) when there is something distracting you in the front row. We used to have this guy sing so loud and so out of tune, that it was making me lose pitch. We had to make him sit in the back of the room. That was an awkward conversation.
But, parents are oober-protective over their kids and if they are comfortable with the nursery situation yet, then they need time to warm-up to it. Or, if the kid is sick, then they shouldn't take the kid either. So, I don't think he was wrong in what he did, but maybe some pro-active ushers would've kept it to a personal scene and could've at least moved the baby to the back of the auditorium. Commen Sense, you think people should have it, but they don't.
Oh, and even if an usher walked up to that lady and took care of it, it still would have been embarrassing and a distraction.
We have tried the NO KIDS policy. Nah. Too mean.
We have tried the let them all in and usher them out when they get rowdy. Ushers in church are MORE of a distraction than the kid.
We meet in a gym so there is not that fancy "cry room".
I think that kids DON'T belong in the adult service. It is an ADULT service. Babies and kids are not going to go home after the pastor is done and have conversation about the service. Now. I am a dad with a 4 year old. 3 year old. And 8 month old. My kids get sick. My kids need to stay home when they are sick.
I agree that children need to learn how to behave in church. So send them to PIPELINE!!! Don't use a service where 400 people are there for learning as a test zone. I understand that all parents are different. We have some parents who won;t go to church for a year because they won't drop their kids off at the nursery. And they are missing out. I think we need to do what pastor Matt fold the rest of the services. If you HAVE to bring your child in, PLEASE sit in the back row and walk out when they become a distraction. We have some parents in our church who I ADORE and they bring thier babies in and the kids don't make a peep. If they do I find them in the lobby rocking them. HELLO!!! This is the picture of what to do. But not everyone seems to parent under those circumstances.
To the point of Matt not calling the woman out.
I think it is perfectly fine to do so. EVERYONE in the church was already thinking it. NO ONE was paying attention to Matt. So for him to ask if everything was OK is just fine.
Here is why I LOVE Matt. In the following services he CONFESSED his sin that he was angry during his message. To the ENTIRE CHURCH. Please tell me next time your pastor does that. THEN he used it as a teaching point to let our church know something that needed to be addresed again. And probably needs to be addressed more often. It was perfect. This service is not the place for your kids. But if you must bring them in, please sit in the back.
Janie has a group of AMAZING (fingerprinted) Sandalites who want nothing more than to LOVE and TEACH your children about Jesus Christ every week. It is the most amazing place and I will be sad when Sohaila, Seanna, and Losiah "graduate" to Pipeline.
Summer has an AMAZING staff of volunteers who don't babysit your 1st through 6th graders. They actively engage them in a service that lets them do what they NEED to do. BE LOUD and DISTRACTING. Ha. Their worship is on par with ours. The teaching is gold. They learn to be in church.
So. After this thesis let me summarize.
Babies in church? Not really. But when necessary, please sit in the back.
Kids in church. Nope. Nope. Nope.
Adults in church who answer cell phones during the sermon...
Los
an infant, on the other hand, is a different story. if you are strictly nursing your baby, how are you supposed to leave your infant in the nursery (without any food?). as for me, i know that i would be so distracted during the service wondering if she's hungry (i guess that's when the pagers come in handy, though).
however, if you do choose to bring your BABY in to church, it should be common sense to take them out of the room as soon as possible (and sit near to door) if they start to cry. nothing really phases me, i'm pretty much immune to kids noises, but i can see where it could be distrasting for a lot of different reasons. i do see where matt is coming from. (and leia will join the babies in the nursery pretty soon, i hope we're not distracting anyone). :)
Do your kids stay in for part of the service? We have worship, kids included, then coffee break and at that time kids are released for kids church. The nursery-two year old class rooms are available during worship also.
We recently went another step by installing video hookups/with taped recordings for the classrooms. No one felt uneasy with anything, but this is a comfort for the visitor who may want to check on their child without going in the classroom. We also have the paging system on our overhead if someone is needed.
So will Matt or someone else from the church check in with this rebuked mom? Is one of the more experienced moms going to befriend her and teach her how to know when to take the baby out? Remember, sometimes common sense isn't all that common.
I was there, in the front row, 1st service, and don't remember a thing from the first half of the sermon because I kept asking God to forgive me for hating the oblivion on the end of the row with the rowdy kid. This child was not bad, just a kid being a kid. My guess from the noise and stroller is that the child was between 6 and 12 months old. How sad is it, that instead of discussing the actual sermon and the wonderful gift God gave us in His Son Jesus, all this bandwidth is being wasted talking about one clueless parent without the awareness to understand that she is ruining the service for everybody else.
For all the people who can't bear the thought of being seperated from their precious bundles of joy, even for an hour and a half. Please, do us all a favor - stay home! Thats right I said it! STAY HOME! I mean really, what did these parents get out of coming to church? ZIP, NADA, GAR NICHTS! Why? because before Matt called 'em out they were pre-occupied with keeping the little darling quiet and thinking about the daggers people were staring at the back of their heads. Then, after Matt said something, all they were thinking about was how embaressed they were and how they'll NEVER come back to this un-friendly church! EVER! Spritiual growth - Zero.
Should Matt have called 'em out from the stage. No. He shouldn't have needed to. The real failure is that we let Matt down. Not one of us (volenteers or staff) was aware enough (or in my own case, brave enough) to deal with the issue before it got so bad that it affected the entire congregation. I guess the real leson here is that Sandals really isn't the little church where everyone knows you name anymore. That we are going to have to put in place some policies and training for our ushers and greeters. What if instead of a loud kid it had been a real security threat? We are in a war people, the enemywill do what ever he can to disrupt God's message. This week it was a loud toddler, next week who knows?
Don't want to be an @$$ here... and this is certainly not apples to apples... but I don't remember this much hoo-hah being raised when the distraction was a CNN crew roaming the building during the service.
I found that quite distracting, as I'm sure Matt did, what with the camera guy all up in his ear and all that. I wasn't involved and don't know what boundaries were drawn for CNN, of course.
It's tough to read all this (as a former Sandal-ite, now posting from afar) as there seems to be some real venom pointed at the mom. Maybe the whole crying kid thing is just a unique animal, but there's ways to say that maybe the mom shouldn't handle it that way without insulting her.
Sandals always felt like an open, welcoming place to me - long time Christians, new Christians, people still seeking, strippers looking to get out of that industry, etc.
Sandals always felt like an open, welcoming place to me - long time Christians, new Christians, people still seeking, strippers looking to get out of that industry, etc. I guess I wonder whether this mom / fam left feeling like Sandals was an open, welcoming place.
Of course there was an alternative provided for her kid(s) that is open / welcoming, and she didn't take the opportunity, so that is her call.
Probably no easy answer on this one
What I'm struck by as I read through the comments is all of the complaints about what "I" didn't get out of the message or how "I" was distracted or she should have been more considerate of "us." I'm gonna assume for a moment (not knowing the full story) that this was a non-believing visitor. When did the gathering become more about "us" (already professing Christians) and not at all about "them."
Hopefully "church" and worship is happening all week long, in fellowship, in prayer, in personal study, in helping each other out. Is it an important time for us believers to learn on Sunday, yes. But it is also our greatest opprtunity to reach non-believers. Sounds like Matt was able to confess his anger that he felt from the situation, and maybe there's a lot of attenders who need to do the same.
While I don't disagree with the other side, maybe we need to work on being less angry because we can't focus on the message, and think about that woman who may be getting more out of the service than you think she is Jim and be glad that she is there.
*I also recognize that I presented absolutley no solutions or good ideas and that comment was completely useless from a practical standpoint. :)
Well Thought Out.
Well Put.
Los
I said earlier I thought kids belonged in church. I know babies and very small children create distractions. It would be proper for the parents then to remove themselves and the child from the service. I don't like the idea of banning all children from the service. My 12 and 10 year old are capable of sitting and listening during a service after they have attended a sunday school class. I love what Bobby said about worshipping and kids seeing others in corporate worship. That is a very good influence and experience for them. My 6 year old would benefit from this worship as well. Can he be a distraction? Yes, and I have to work with him. I don't deny him from children's church by any means. But I would like the opportunity to start to bring him into services with me as well from time to time.
I bet Jesus would be glad that "mrs. elephant" left a church feeling unwelcome because there was "an elephant in the room that got addressed…"
I'm pretty sure Jesus had sudden outbursts of anger while he was preaching and some kid was running around.... especially in Matthew.
Matthew 19 (The Message)
13-15 One day children were brought to Jesus in the hope that he would lay hands on them and pray over them. The disciples shooed them off. But Jesus intervened: "Let the children alone, don't prevent them from coming to me. God's kingdom is made up of people like these." After laying hands on them, he left.
By the way...
"I’m sorry for this woman who most likely was embarrassed, I’m sad if she leaves thinking Sandals is unloving and that our pastor is_____________ whatever… some of you have filled in the blank… But I’m glad this elephant is out of the room!
In my opinion this totally negates any "apology" that was offered.
The ushers need to have people with children sit in the back and "help" them if Jr. becomes a distraction.
The grace is, we are all learning....all the time
I might have kicked that preacher in the teeth. Or allowed my kid to. Or something. How insanely rude.
But there are LOTS of churches out there. And there are lots of people who go to these churches. Sandals is not for everyone. I highly doubt that Brody or Jenna or a few others would last a day in our environment.
And that is OK.
People get to choose where they go to church. And last I remember there are like 10 within 2 miles.
So try not to get "feelings" hurt by comments around here. I don't. And I actually learn from some of the nastiest. Of which none were on this post. Believe me.
So keep the comments flowing and lets continue to discuss openly why we think the way we see it works.
Los
In this situation, though, just from reading here, it seems like passing judgement on Toddler Mom's handling of the situation (or on the haters, for that matter) is OK, but passing judgement on Matt is not...?
Where are the boundaries? What is "judge-able" and what is not?
I don't know... just asking the question.
Lots of defense for Matt going on here... as it should. You're right, Denise, he's not Jesus, he's a man.
Less defense for the mom/toddler going on here... though she is not Jesus either...
Matt's position allowed him to admit his faults and apologize. Toddler Mom doesn't get that chance.
To me it seems unfortunate that "most of the “haters” last about 1 week". I know plenty of people, that "hate" Christians, that need to last longer than a week at church. Perhaps someone would consider rewriting the ministry statement on the church website, if what you say is true. Was this woman "welcomed into a relaxed and receptive environment"?
My argument is not with the pastor. As stated in these comments and the original post, the pastor apologized and (for all we know) was forgiven. My problem is with the comments left by people pointing out the mothers "sub-par parenting skills" or maybe calling the woman and child an "elephant in the room that needed to be dealt with".
Don't get me wrong. I have three (very active) boys ages 4, 2 and one month old, and would (and do) gladly sit in the back of the service when one of them needs to be in there with us.
Who ever said that a pastor needs to be perfect? I never ask for that in my church, and never expect the pastor to view the congregation with the same deluded mentality. However, in this case, yes, your pastor was wrong. No, your pastor isn't Jesus, but his profession is to be representing Jesus to a room full of people. And so is yours. Simply saying the "haters" should take a walk is the furthest thing from what Jesus would tell them. Again. Doesn't sound like a "relaxed and receptive environment" does it?
Regarding your statement of "I highly doubt that Brody or Jenna or a few others would last a day in our environment"...
The reason I asked what "your environment" was, was simply because your churches "environment" is printed (using the same exact word) on your website. To me your description and the one advertised at Sandals, are completely different.
I understand a lot of people having your pastors back on this one, but he realized he was wrong and admitted it to two more services. I think that was big of him and the right thing to do. Why is it that the people he is shepherding can't do the same and realize that what he did was wrong?
**I don't know why these are italics either... it could have something to do with the amount of comments and it bringing it into a "hot topic" on your blog.**
I guess I am just trying to see both perspectives, which can be a tricky game. Things seemed a little out of balance here with lots of peeps sticking up for Matt and throwing rocks at Toddler Mom.
Sorry, had to give her a name, it was getting to cumbersome to find ways to refer to her... I guess we should include Toddler Dad too in the name of equality...
Probably a semantic thing... but I think you and Los may differ on the definition of haters... I don't think he's referring to people that hate Christians... rather, maybe to professing Christians who like to hate / judge...
And YES. we will agree to disagree.
It is not my job to represent Jesus in a room full of people. It is our job to point to Him while admitting that we suck. Ain't no way I am even close enough to try to represent Christ. So in turn I point to Him and sing at the top of my lungs that I need him desperately.
People come to Sandals because we lead through our faults. Showing that your pastors are as human as you. And so THAT is why our church is flooding with people who have no idea who Christ is yet want what they see in a pastor who is striving for authenticity directly in their face.
And I also disagree with the fact that haters should not take a walk. Why stay somewhere you can't stand?
Semantics again... but, seems like it plays a part in the discussion and disagreement here.
If haters = overly judgemental religious types... then Scripture tells more than one story about Christ dealing with them...
Great topic Los. It has been fun.
"... Jesus called to himself a child - the essence of one who is powerless, dependent, needy, little, and poor. He placed the child 'in the midst of them,' as a concrete, visible sacrament of how the Kingdom looks. Jesus' act with the child is interesting. In many of our modern, sophisticated congregations, children are often viewed as distractions. We tolerate children only to the extent they promise to become "adults" like us. Adult members sometimes complain they cannot pay attention to the sermon, they cannot listen to the beautiful music, when fidgety children are beside them in the pews. "Send them away," many adults say. Create "Children's Church" so these distracting children can be removed in order that we adults can pay attention.
Interestingly, Jesus put a child in the centre of his disciples, "in the midst of them," in order to help them pay attention. The child, in Jesus' mind, was not an annoying distraction. The child was a last-ditch effort by God to help the disciples pay attention to the odd nature of God's kingdom. Few acts of Jesus are more radical, countercultural, than his blessing of children."
Stanley Hauerwas, Resident Aliens: A provocative Christian assessment of culture and ministry for people who know that something is wrong, 1989, 96)
Welcome to worship, we love your kids, we have a great kids program for them, However if you would rather have them stay in worship with you, we just ask that you handle them how most of us would like to be handled. If I start to whimper a bit, I hope someone would give me a hug and maybe walk around with me a bit. But, if I start causing a distraction and yelling, I hope someone would take me out in the hallway and figure out what was going on. We just ask that you handle your kids how you would like to be handled.
Or something like that.
What would you have done if you were in Matt's or Sandals position? How would you have addressed it? I think that is where the tension is. We can point our wrong easily after the fact, but in the moment what would you have done?
Remember you are speaking to 450 people.
It is the first of three times you will speak.
You cannot concentrate on what you need to say.
You are getting lost and frustrated.
What do you do?
As for the scripture quoting, which is cool. Always bring balance. Kids can come to Christ(See above) and there must be order in worship to avoid distraction.(See Corinth) It is a tension.
Also we need to balance the rights of one and the rights of many. She was not the only person who (maybe) did not know Christ in the building, she was not the only person who needed to connect with God. We all need too, me included. As a staff member I need to provide an environment that is as free from distraction as possible. What that is? I do not know.
It seems there are no easy answers. I even read earlier that a staff member could possibly cause more problems by escorting them out. At Sandals that would be me! Great I want that job! Plus, I think that would be more disruptive than talking to her.
My final answer, I still do not know what to do. I think all the answers I come up with are not positive.
Leave her alone.
Talk to her
Escort her out
Not let her in
PS. One sermon while I was teaching I had a couple, making out! I got so distracted and lost there was no way I could land the plane, so I just moved on the the next point and left the church totally confused. That was great!
I have no idea what I would've done in Matt's shoes, Nathan. I've had stuff happen while I'm up there, but it has always gotten handled by someone who was off stage - or, worse, it was ignored.
This one lady used to bring a tambourine to church every week and play it during the worship music. Great except she had ZERO RHYTHM.
"I don’t need to be around pretentious, arrogant preachers… let alone learn from them."
That sounds like a judgment call on Matt, and stated extremely rudely as well. To be honest with you bro, that one statement turned me off to anything else you had to say. That does qualify you as a "hater" in my book. The way I see it, there's no need or room for name calling in a discussion like this.
I don't attend Sandals (although I'd love to if I lived near it and weren't in full time ministry myself) and I don't know Matt personally. But I appreciate their ministries and all that they are accomplishing to further the kingdom. As far as not lasting long, it reminded me of something I heard from a friend on staff at Mosaic. He said if you fit in well in most church environments, you're probably gonna have a tough time and won't last long at our church.
I think this is similar to the church I am at right now as well as Sandals. I'm just guessing that may be kinda what Carlos is getting at when he speaks of the environment. I think y'all get it, so I won't spend time elaborating on that at this point.
In the words of the great Mr. (not Dr.) King - "Can't we all just get along?"
I hear you on the consistency thing.
However, that was my first comment and after that exchanged 3 or 4 emails with Carlos, asking whether the pastor apologized. Carlos mentioned that he even took the lady out to lunch. That was cool enough for me.
Until....
I read the comments by the pastors wife and several other attenders of the church.
I figured that my first comment would raise a few eyebrows and look at that... it has. Yeah it was passing judgement on the pastor, imagine that... lashing out in "anger" and being called on it... where have I heard this story before??
This is my favorite though...
"To be honest with you bro, that one statement turned me off to anything else you had to say.
I wonder if that happened on Sunday at Sandals...
If you believe kids should be in church with grown-ups you can borrow my kid anytime. I promise you will change your mind after 10 minutes!!!!
Here, I'll add a closed italics tag to this comment and see if it stops the madness!!
I'm gonna blog more on this topic soon I hope because this whole post of yours, los, reminds me of a lesson or two I've had to learn the hard way over the years performing...
There are reasons we're together in a place called "church" as the community called "Church" that go well beyond the production and preaching. Children, the handicapped, the elderly, the simple, the fat, the tone deaf - they all either detract from someone else's experience of certain aspects of the church (show) OR can't fully participate, understand or appreciate it.
But we aren't together in authentic community only to fully understand, participate and appreciate the teaching and other performances on a Sunday morning. We have value beyond these abilities. Children, for example, are living metaphors of acceptable religion, examples of the attitudes and values our spirits must take on in order to be followers of Christ.
AND a church that doesn't allow interruptions, noise, mistakes, distractions, is not - I think, having not been to yours - a "real" place at all. Life is filled with all these things. And I fear that my having to pay tribute to and listen to God in a perfect vacuum poorly prepares me to continue listening to and paying tribute to God in my noisy and less-than-perfect real life outside the sanctuary/gymnasium.
it seems to me that one of the compliments I hear paid most often to Sandals is that it upsets the staid Christian full of Pharisaical expectations and that it is a place of acceptance for the outsider, the spiritual seeker, the bruised, wary and worldly. It seems - again, I haven't been there myself - like a contradiction then to require the gym to be a distraction free, kid free, squirm free, noise free environment, mimicking the most traditional cathedrals you guys - I'd think - want to be the opposite of in many ways.
I know what it's like to prepare a sermon/performance and have it not be the center of attention. That hurts my ego. A sure sign that I'm prideful. And anger is a confirmation of that. At least in my life.
We can keep this post going well into next week (which I'm sure Carlos would be happy about), but I would like to hear more responses to Nathan's post. Let's give Matt the benefit of the doubt for a minute and assume that the situation was well beyond the normal fussing child. How would you like it handled?
Since this has been "what if'd" to death.....what if she was surrounded by 30-40 unsaved, unchurched people who came to hear what Matt had to say but were distracted by "Toddler woman."
For conversation sake....the service is screaching to a halt.....what would you do?
How about them Chargers?
Since you brought it up....LT is unstoppable!
This leads us to the following conclusion: I myself am the most pretentious for pointing out that Brody is pretentious for calling Matt Brown pretentious. Brody was not an eyewitness to the account on Sunday and therefore has a limited ability to make a relevant point. Nevertheless, his attempt to make a relevant point using neat verses from Sunday School is really cute. Niether Brody nor myself are very humble for making such assertions in a public forum. I'll work on that.
I think we should all get together, admit we suck sometimes, Brody and I can confess that neither of us know anything about running a church, and then we can all face up to the fact that my 49ers' Frank Gore is the leading rusher in the NFC, not LT.
"Pharisaical"...dang that was deep.
Go ahead and pop yo collar, homie.
It seems to be that he did the right thing (addressing the mom) but with the wrong heart towards the boy according to his 2nd sermon (which of he came to repentance very soon). Praise God!
Mikko - you have a unique way of cutting right to the heart of the issue... I admire that.
Here is a copy of an email that I sent Los minutes after posting.
"yeah, i guess that was pretty harsh... sorry. I think the very first comment pissed me off... i shouldn't have jumped to that.
i just don't think it's the pastors place to call out a lady in the middle of church... did he apologize to her at all? or just the next services?
brody"
(for additional copies see Carlos' email trash bin)
Cash.
I have one correction for you. Carlos asked my "ragamuffin opinion". He asked my opinion. I gave it... and pissed a bunch of people off... I'm not worried about that.
Once again. The pastor apologized. I'm okay with that... I'm not okay with all the crap slinging found here... obviously not a group of people learning by example.
I don't like football
I realized that... but how is that woman going to take that? Any excuse for someone else calling her a "sub-par parent"??
Just curious
Nevermind, no more!!!
Man, if she was thinking about coming back to church she is not now after reading all your posts!
How about....hummmm....Tennie Pierce, the firefighter who wants to get 2.7M for eating dog food?
YES? NO?
I'll eat some dog food. Any bids?
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local...
I am certainly not pissed off. There are bigger fish that require my emotions.
I was merely stating the obvious about pretentious people of which I find myself a part of all too often. And if your opinion is that we have a pretentious and arrogant preacher that you simply can't learn from...then my last comment stands firm and speaks for itself. There is no need to wash, rinse, and repeat.
You said you had a correction for me. What is it exactly you are correcting? I was commenting on the opinion you gave in a public forum, not what prompted you to give it. Perhaps we could more accurately say that you were clarifying and providing background. That's appreciated. But there's certainly nothing to correct.
I realized after pushing "submit" that my "correction wasn't very clear.
you said:
"Brody was not an eyewitness to the account on Sunday and therefore has a limited ability to make a relevant point. Nevertheless, his attempt to make a relevant point using neat verses from Sunday School is really cute."
My correction was that it didn't matter if I was an eyewitness to the account on Sunday. I was asked my opinion, already placed in a public forum. I can see your point that I wasn't there and can't make a total judgement on the actions of your pastor. I can also see the fact that this is a blog where an opinion was asked.
I have spent all this time "discussing" this and never really stated what I would have done though. I would have let it slide and had an usher or someone else on staff (maybe Carlos) talk to the woman after the service.
Just as my "outburst" that everyone is referring to negates my entire argument, the same (no doubt) occurred after the pastors "outburst" negated the rest of his entire sermon. Imagine if someone across the room was really getting something out of the service, and was completely un-phased by the child. I see that as an opportunity lost. Again, I am sorry for calling your pastor pretentious. He probably isn't.
I still can't figure out if I should apologize for using "neat verses from Sunday School" though.
I didn't realize "Big People Church" verses were separate from "Sunday School" verses in the Bible.
One More to 100!!!
Los
why does it say i posted at 3:02 its 2:02 on my computer?
Come on 100 is Huge!!!!!
This is amazing!!!!
At least you should get a congrats phone call from the "Blog Father"
...........hm or maybe it is Heather because She posted at 2:02 pst. and 3:02 pst on her computer and Tony, technecally posted at least two hours after......so if this is the Olympics and everything is rigged, Heater Wins!!!!!!!!
Yeah........................
I have enjoyed the play of philosophy, the sarcastic remarks, the apologies, clarifications, and the witty back handed comments. If you can't do this with brothers in Christ, who can you do it with?
One God, One Truth, One Love, you know what I mean?
I am going to gracefully bow out now.
Peace
Perfect.
I have two daughters (and a son on the way). My 2 year old LOVES her Sunday School class, but more than that she loves to go to Mommy and Daddy's "class" (the church service) for awhile before we take her to her class.
Every week, she'll join us for the worship music and part of the sermon. I don't know if she's a distraction or not...we try not to be.
What I do know is this, the other day, I was checking weather.com and an ad popped up. The ad showed people cheering at a sporting event. Even though we've been to tons of football and basketball games (we live in a college town) my daughter's first comment when she saw the picture was:
"Wook Mommy! People worshipping God!"
I know that I want my children to see people really worshipping God. I want them to see me worshipping Him. I want them to see me studying the Bible and other adults studying the Bible.
Is "big" church the best place for this or perhaps a Bible Study?
I suppose either way our kids will be a bit of a distraction.
Sorry, no answers here. Just thoughts.
Very interesting information! Thanks!
G'night