Ragamuffin Soul - Latest Comments in Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Invisible Fence — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:49:02 -0000

Great questions! now I need to go think of an answer... I'll be back and subscribing to the feed!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Renee — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:59:50 -0000

1. To ascend the throne room...we are gathered with the Angels and the people who have gone before us on the Lord's Day! What a priviledge...And I think worship is vital, but I really think Eucharist/Communion is the climax of it all. Therein lies the mystery. Its about HIM! Who or what else do we get to call Holy, Holy, Holy. What a priviledge we have on Sunday!

2. I think God uses us in spite of us...so yes. Personally would I want it for a Lord's Day celebration, no...its about meeting Him that day. I just think Sunday morning is set apart, but I would love to worship in that manner at some other time. I was raised that way...I do have a soft spot for it. I just see Sunday morning for a different focus...HIM.

Such good questions!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Kathryn — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:44:48 -0000

1. I think that many others have expressed my answer to the first question. There are simple, but powerful, truths found in the words people have expressed on this blog. Thanks for sharing them.
2. In regards to worship.....what a privilege to be able to sharpen one another and ask these important questions. The Lord looks at our hearts and I do believe that different churches are "called" to minister in different ways. How we invite God's people into His presence through song will also look very different. I think it is so important to remember that whatever lights we have or don't have...whatever style we present...it's just all about Him. If the rocks cry out...then I pretty much don't need anything more than a heart longing to worship my Savior. If the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is alive in me and YOU...then we pretty much don't need anything more than the power of the Holy Spirit at work (hopefully) in and through us...drawing the lost, calling each name...and causing us to hunger for more of Him. Are the lights and the music and sound wrong? Of course not:) He loves us. If we invite him according to His word... there He will be in our midst. I believe that people can be saved from the first note played on a guitar. We don't need the "stuff," we just need more of Him. Sometimes we try hard to create an "environment" for people through worship. Doesn't the Lord just want to exalt him....for wherever two or more gather in his name, there he is in our midst...just waiting for us to listen, to linger, and to leave filled and blessed.

It's awesome to have so much technology at your disposal.If the Lord is calling your church to worship with lights and visual art...then it sounds like you need to do it with everything you've got! And so you are.
We all just need to be good stewards with what God has given to us.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

BB — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:45:40 -0000

I've been wrestling with these sort of questions for sometime. As a worship leader, I identify a lot with some of what Anne wrote in her original blog post. It really messes with my head when people come up to me and say "So, are we going to have good music this morning?" or "Your music meant so much to me today". I don't think that comments like these are inherently bad- I try not to read into them too much, but when you're working so hard to see people moved closer to God, you start to wonder if the culture you're creating is counterproductive to what God wants when you start hearing things like that. At this point, all I know to do is to make sure that my motives are staying true to helping move people closer to God and to let Him know that I'm trying my best to see that happen. If I don't focus on that, I fear that I'll crumble under the enormity of it all.

As to the questions Los posses:

1. I think the book of Titus answers what the purpose of the Church is. Paul doesn't give a lot of answers as to how some of this should be worked out, but he makes it clear what churches should do. The thing that struck me the most as I read through it was that we should teach our people how to excel at doing good works. How to meet the urgent needs of others. The other thing that is stressed is to live humble, godly lives so that we have a good witness among the unbelievers around us. To live in a way that leaves no room for others to despise us. Paul says that these are the things that we should teach our people. It may seem over simplified, but I don't know of many churches who are just focusing on these things.

2. I absolutely believe that God can engage the hearts of people through all of the items Los mentions. God has engaged my heart through them and I know that He has in others as well. But I think that He can equally engage us without them. My fear is that we get people thinking that they can't connect with God without all of those things. I know that for me, I can start to have a hard time worshiping God without those things if I'm not careful. Another fear of mine on this topic is that we try so hard to create a relevant environment for seekers that we remove the onus of evangelism from our people. I'm not saying that we should throw away our "invest and invite" strategies, but I do think that we are producing a generation of Christians who have no idea how to personally share Christ with others because we've taught them that their job is just to get people to church and we'll take care of the rest.

So, like I said, I wrestle with all of this, but I don't mean to put down any other church's methods. The last thing we need is to be throwing rocks at each other's methods. As long as Christ is your goal, then we're all on the same team.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

KC — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:16:02 -0000

Los

This post has really made me think since I first read it Sunday night and since I can seem to shake it I decided I would post, sorry for the length.

In response to Number 1, God clearly desires that his followers gather in corporate worship 'WHERE TWO OR MORE ARE GATHERED...". Sunday morning at Church is a chance to commune not only with God but to gather in one of the few places, at least for me, that the cares of the outside world tend to disappear and I am able to focus on something completely different and much larger & more important than me. While I am sure that many folks would say that I should find other time for that and I do, but it is absolutely the one time where no phone will ring, email arrive or a kid's scream and it is is precious to me. Sunday also give those of us not called to full time ministry a chance to serve the Church and hopefully offer a vision of selfless service.

On question 2, my heart has been laid bare more times by a video clip, performance art or a song that really captures the picture of Christ's love for us than by any other element in a worship service. I think that God works with the tools of the day, whether it was the hands of artist in the Middle Ages, the beautiful concerts of Mozart or Beethoven, or simply a church choir raising their voices in praise. I grew up attending traditional protestant churches throughout the South and I think one of the primary problems facing the local church is that it has failed to modernize and recognize that for many people the traditional piano and organ are a passe' and that for many non-believers it is not just not getting it done. Instead these folks are turning away from the Church simply because they believe it has lost touch with modern times. Consequently, I believe that some churches are recognizing that this multi-media generation is in need of constant technological stimulation, Twitter anyone, and has decided to meet those needs in a worship environment that either sparks an interest in our heavenly father, furthers their relationship with him, or most importantly brings them into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I have seen this happen at Buckhead and look forward to what's next.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

West — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:35:26 -0000

Ok...I'm going with my own opinion here as I just don't have the time to read through all the responses that you and your dang popular blog get. (I'm not jealous)

1. be careful about being proud of what buckhead church is doing. it's not that you're not doing great things...just be careful...I love you and what you do..don't want to see it get more important than everything else

2. Weekend gatherings....well, to promote bonding and fellowship. We are supposed to step out of our comfort zone and get to know people we have yet to meet. (right?) We are to grow closer with God...Together

3. What was that question again? (scrolled up...got it) Yes, I think God can reach a person's heart through production, etc... I played drums at and attended Crossroads Chruch in Corona back in '03....then went to my current church and almost didn't go back because the music was so bad and I could NOT connect....I play drums at my church in hopes to help....when I feel I am not helping, I am done....not the point, but a comment. There are those in a service who are distracted w/life and worries......that is merely part of our job, but is our responsibility all the same......help these souls release their worries and worship God.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Scott Fillmer — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:22:42 -0000

The church sometimes "tries" to do it all, but I believe the original church was created for "worship". I don't have the scriptures to back it up right this minute but I will try to post them again later.

The original church was a place where Believers would come in and worship, not the thousand other things that we sometimes try to accomplish in a 60 minute period.

It was a time to renew the spirit, strengthen the conviction to follow the teachings of Christ, and give the Believers the strength they needed to "go out".

When we meet on Sunday morning we should be engaged in worship (in my opinion).

That doesn't mean that I don't think the church has other responsibilities, it does, but at other times.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Los' brother's wife's brother — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:12:40 -0000

1. To be brutally general, the weekend gathering should be a time when the attendee will be re-centered on Christ, encouraged, and sent back into the world to accomplish the call on thier individual life. Unfortunately (this is the brutally general part), we live in a 'serve me' culture, and expect to be catered to, rather than seek opportunities to serve. If people show up on the weekend, and they don't allow what they do and hear to effect their life during the week, it is worthless.

2. In a perfect world, our Bible alone would suffice to induce powerful worship...it works in the 3rd world. What would happen if Christians expressed their contentment, not only in the worship service, but also with their daily lives? What if we were to forsake our McMansions and took over the trailer parks sharing with everyone that no one would have need? I'm a little tired of looking to the government to accomplish the Church's call to care for the poor...and at the same time, I write this from my McMansion on my laptop, etc, etc, etc. I'm discouraged that my faith will only stretch to the point that I'm confortable...then I find excuses. Screw comfort...live for Jesus. I'm working on it.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Bryan — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:00:58 -0000

First off, when we look back at the new testament church, they were gathering in homes AND also preaching to the masses. The first documented sermon of the N.T. church saw 3000 people saved in one day. I am sure those 3000 were then encouraged and directed to move out and engage in a home church - which in my opinion is exactly what our modern day home groups are.

So that leads to the question - What is the weekend worship service for?

I believe it is a place for all to experience and connect. To experience and connect with God, His children, and those that are seeking. I don't believe one can come sit in a service and immediately jump out into a home group. One must experience community first, before they will ever take on the challenge of sitting down in a small group of people they have never met.

Small groups, or whatever you may call them, have statistically struggled in the US church, because we tend to lack genuine community in our weekend service. When you look at the stats you will discover it is a rare church that has more than 35-40% of their church body actively engaged in a home group. There is a bit of good news, in that we have seen a trend upward over the past couple years. I believe most of that can be attributed to the massive push to establish and build genuine and authentic community by many of our churches.

So, what is the value of lights, camera, action, so to speak in our weekend service? I believe it helps people connect. The camera helps people to see the visual expression, inflection and movement of the pastor, worship leader etc. It brings the environment of the large room to a much more personal level.

Much of the lighting is essential to the camera and video quality. Lighting also helps establish the atmosphere of the room. With lighting I can build the atmosphere to a place where people engage and scream out the praises of God, or I can pull it back to a place where in that quite, still moment, the feeling of no one else around but you and God, the heart begins to melt and God is allowed, maybe for the first time, to speak to the individual. In that moment, which I have seen countless times, brokenness comes and the bitterness of the heart slides off and newness springs forth.

I must also tell you that while production should never supersede the message...it must also never take a complacent seat in the car. You have to ensure that lighting is timed correctly and that the quality is high. Because the last thing needed in a moment like I described above is for a missed cue or program to run that flashes lights all over the room. You have to use production and technology in a manner that reflects the mood and atmosphere of the moment. You cannot allow for it to distract.

# 2 - I highly believe that a person connects to God uniquely in worship and music. It is through this time that God showers His love onto the individual. I know of no better way to engage God than through worship. He is the ultimate and deserves nothing less than our devoted worship.

The thing that I believe stands out to me most about God is that He is uniquely creative. He created the heavens and the earth. He created the beasts of the field, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea... and He created you and me.

In all of that knowledge, how can we wonder if God likes creative things? He is the master of creativity. I know that His hearts leaps when His creation steps out in creativity to share His love and reach those He wants to reach.

Is it not unlike the proud moment in a fathers life, when he notices his son holding the fork the same way He does or putting his clothes on the same way he does etc.?

So to wonder if God can engage His people on a creative level or by a creative means..... is much like wondering if a car can really run on gas?

We were created by a hugely creative God, using highly creative means, and in all of that we cannot run from the creativity that is divinely embedded into each of us.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

stephen — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:49:26 -0000

I've responded to these questions today on my blog:

http://rockerandtheologian....

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

nate davis — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:44:09 -0000

1.) Depends on the vision of the pastor. To me the base of either side (seeker friendly or not) of the fence is community. You'll experience God in a different power corporately than you will privately.

2.) To me it all falls on leadership. You can have the most bad a$$ production but without a strong leader your worship times will become a great Christian concert that people watch...not participate in.
You need to have someone who can break down the invisible wall, reach out and grab the congregation, and lead them to the throne. I think we give congregations too much credit. We think they know what it means to engage the heart of God during worship and the majority usually don't. Now, if we teach them and truly LEAD them in giving God His worth, not just lead them in a verse and hooky chorus, then overtime they'll begin to go there without our promptings. If you can have that in a Worship Pastor and enhance it with the production...watch out!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Kyle Reese — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:35:57 -0000

Also, while I totally agree that poverty in Uganda and elsewhere is extremely important, we cannot forgot about the lost in our own city/state/region.

Again, we are called love everyone. To build His kingdom everywhere.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Kyle Reese — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:33:00 -0000

Texas in Africa - Is it always about marketing worship to make people feel comfortable though? I believe some churches are doing that yes, however we cannot assume that with any church. Some churches use this because those are the gifts that they were blessed with, and the church is choosing to empower those people with the gifts in order to create an authenticity that perhaps some didn't feel before hand. Again, it's all a matter of ability to connect and grow while being able to give praises to our God.

When you talk about growth, I guess I need you to explain just a little bit more on what you mean. For me, I believe God would like for the church body to grow, as long as his kingdom is growing. However, we cannot expect these people that are coming into our church for the first time to believe what we believe. We are only called to love them and to be a river of life in their life and help connect them with God, no matter what that looks like. If that love is through amazing crazy worship with huge lights, which one can create a worship environment that is full of connection, and two can also create great discussion topics for someone new within the church. Not always will what we do be glorifying to God in the way we might "plan" or expect it to, but it can still be glorifying and honoring to Him.

www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Texas in Africa — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:14:49 -0000

Okay, Carlos asked: "And so what do you do with churches that spend money on them both?"

Right, and I know that most churches like yours probably do. But the global church is clearly not fulfilling its God-given mission to care for the least of these. We just aren't. There are babies dying of diarrhea and people in prison who never have visitors and families that can't escape from poverty no matter how hard they work. We may be doing it in some places, with some of our resources, but the vast majority of us (and I include myself in this) are not living the kind of sold-out lives that say that every child on the other side of the world's welfare is more important than whether I have the newest gadgets, nor are we attending churches that make ending global suffering more of a budget priority than keeping the lights on and paying salaries of huge numbers of staff members.

Kyle, I totally agree that God calls different people in different ways. Foam or no foam or no latte in the first place. Different styles and different preachers are going to be what draw people in. But I'm just not sure that church is supposed to be about "growth" in the way that we've gotten accustomed to thinking about it. And I'm not sure that marketing worship to make people comfortable is the model Jesus gave us.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Rich S. — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:08:26 -0000

Just a thought about "Ladies & Gentleman" and the like. Yes, it was NOT a "worship song". Not ALL the music used in church service specifically has to qualify as "worship music", does it? Some music, like the "Ladies & Gentlemen" production mentioned, are placed in the service to draw attention to and/or highlight the subject of the spoken message that week...to get people's attention and draw them in to the topic. If it serves that purpose, and that message changes lives, it's fine by me.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Kyle Reese — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:07:34 -0000

Stevo28...I completely agree. If someone does not like the loud music/lights/etc, then go elsewhere to find a place where you feel you can connect with God. That is why God has called for more church plants. Times have changed, so we as the church have to change as well. We cannot connect with people the same way we did 100 years ago, or even 10 years ago for that matter.

I also agree that God has blessed churches nationwide with the staff and gifts that they have to be able to create that type of setting. As a body of Christ we should be open to use any and every resource possible to connect people to God.

www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Scott Gaglardi — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:03:07 -0000

Good questions. We find ourselves continually dealing with people who are confused about these questions or have arrived at different answers than we have (they don't stick around long) so we have tried to be very clear about our answers.

1. Sunday is a celebration gathering - thanking God for what He has done, and what we by faith know He will do. We aim for a very upbeat, celebrative tone. Sunday is not the full extent of our worship, but it is an important expression of our corporate (family) worship.

2. We are in relationship with an absolutely creative God. He chose to reveal Himself through creativity and beauty so 'YES' we certainly can engage people with these expressions - God did.

thanks for the blog and keeping us thinking

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Stevo28andGrowing — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:58:54 -0000

Also, keep in mind that God created everything that Buckhead is using to worship. God created sound, music, light, and the people who have found countless new ways to take God's creation and make is shout out. Personally I dig that.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Stevo28andGrowing — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:55:56 -0000

I think it's as simple as "foam or no foam". I personally totally connect with Buckhead Church's format. and I AM A BELIEVER. Someone above said that productions may help the unchurched feel comfortable, but for me, as a believer it helps me feel comfortable because the music is who I am. The creativity is who I am. The truth that Andy & crew share is who I am. To me it's Christ centered every week.

That being said, I know people who can't stand the lights/etc. There are people who find comfort in reading text out loud as a congregation. There's nothing wrong with this, but I personally don't feel connected through it. I don't like singing out of a hymnal, but I do like it when hymns are brought into today's music and used.

The thing is...it's so personal. What ever YOU like, connect with, etc etc....GO FIND IT. Don't judge a church, big or small for not doing something right or in God's honor...that's not our job. God is bigger than that, and he meets people in big churches, small churches, alive churches and dead churches. He is capable of anything.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

b/ — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:54:30 -0000

I asked the same question on my blog only a three days ago. I didn't get much discussion, but I'll join the game of red rover and send all my readers right on over.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Russ — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:39:21 -0000

Well Said Susie.

I attend a small church (growing quickly) that's pushing 400. Our ministry philosophy (which is emphasized over and over again) is that "everything we do is about people" - every note, every light, ever word, every prop, every decision, every dollar spent, every dollar saved, etc. - it's all about them, not us. Which combined with a beautiful desire to bring glory and honor to God day in and day out makes for a very balanced approach (regardless of what the critics say).

The evidence is in changed lives.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Susie — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:10:55 -0000

1. To me the weekend worship service is about the lost person, and making sure every single thing is about making followers of Christ. That one hour is not about me or what I think as a long time follower of Christ. I worship throughout the week through every aspect and if I saved my worship for Sunday only, it would be fake for sure.
2. Yes! Yes! Yes! I cannot even count over the years the number of people who tell me how the music/media ministry of our church had a huge part of them coming to Christ. They know it's not about the amazing light show, and the rockin' guitars, but it made them want to come back and listen to God's word.

Honestly, this whole discussion really ticks me off. I have been a music/media pastor's wife for over 10 years and the way that people on Anne's site so flippantly talk about worship pastor's and their roles and hearts gets me very on edge. If each one of these people could wait to judge after seeing the hours of prayer, time, researching, more prayer, rehearsals, study and sweat that goes into creatively engaging worshippers each week, they would hesitate to speak so freely on their 2 cents.

The proof is in the lives being changed, the community, and the gospel reaching a lost generation. Sorry, this is so long, I just love the musicians and the techies that God allows to use their gifts each and every week. Not to mention, I love lots of lights and loud music.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Sam — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:00:42 -0000

Back in the college days while backpacking through Italy, I spent an afternoon walking around the Vatican getting upset at all of the masterpieces of art that litter St. Peter's… only to realize that I was wasting my disgust where my taste was just lagging the technology of the age by a few hundred years. The Catholic church didn't commit blasphemy by commissioning Michelangelo to spend hours upon hours chiseling the emotion of Mary holding her dead Son and savior in her hands… it was simply employing the best talent and technology of the day to help people understand Christ's death and sacrifice.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this. If you're a rock star, don't waste your time evaluating the opportunity cost of the time spent to perfect your riff, in lieu of planting corn to feed the world, make that riff perfect and trust God to place a farmer with a thing for rock music, lights, high def screens, and fog machines in the pew/purple chair.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

Dolores Cadena — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:44:35 -0000

Yes, I would like to see our church get back to more "worship" music, but I am also reminded that it's not all about me. I can worship to the music I listen to in my car if it means that we were able to reach a non church going individual/family through our non traditional music at church.

I agree that we really could use a more balanced approach so that we don't leave out the older generation. It's a tough balancing act.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Red Rover Red Rover Send Worship Talks Over

codyknutson — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:40:41 -0000

Good questions. Is the second necessary?
1. To meet God at level unachievable without the body. Worship is acknowledging HIM in every aspect of one's life.
2. Lights,video,loudness,hazers,bass...are just a venue to relate to a specific people group. To plug or unplugg that is the questions. Sometimes I want to be energized, sometimes I want to be broken. Are you, we, I being effective? To be entertained means to not think, if I am thinking honestly it's about myself, in a worship setting if I am not thinking about myself it is easier to focus on worship.