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2. Not only can that be done, I believe fully like my post a few days ago said, that time have changed, and we are called to change with them. With that said, God does not change, his truth is the same as it was forever ago. Yet to reach someone today, media, lights, loud music, etc, needs to be used with a mix of the old as well, to reach everyone. That's the thing, we are not called to reach one demographic, yet we are called to reach everyone.
One more thing, it is our job as the church body to reach the unsaved. Not just the church. We have to take accountability for our faith, and our purpose through Christ. Too many times we blame it on the "church" as in the staff of a church, because money is going toward different things when we could be putting it directly towards Uganda. As my pastor said today, just because you hear a great vision, doesn't mean it's Gods great vision for you.
Thanks for the topic. I'll be looking forward to reading the responses.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
1. I think it changes culturally & generationally. It seems like right now it is to expose people to God's personality through music, teaching, relationships, serving, loving, community, etc.
2. Of course! God can do whatever he wants and a persons heart, no matter how hard or damaged, is no match for God's grace, love, forgiveness, joy, discipline, etc. And what better way to engage those hearts than through musical worship, production, creative video elements, and whatever the human heart that is connected to God can dream up.
A side note. I am a believer that you cannot grow completely and correctly by simply being engaged this way during a weekend worship experience. I believe that small groups, serving, and community are where real spiritual depth comes from. It's a balance.
2. absolutely.
http://www.switchfeed.com/2008/04/instead-of-sh...
2. Abso-freakin'-lutely!
Because we are each uniquely created children of God we each have different gifts and we each have different things that draw us in. For some it's the lights - the colors can represent so many things, for others it's the sights - the images on the screen or in the room, still others respond to the music - the rhythm, beat or flow stirs something within them, some respond to the silence - a moment to pause and reflect on all God has done for them, still others respond to a smell - the purfume of someone beside them reminding them that they are not alone in this world.
My point is that we are all different - there is no right or wrong type of person and we each look for something different in our weekend gatherings. As long as the leaders are using the gifts that God has called them to use to reach all of His people - the saved and unsaved - then there is no right or wrong "style".
I'm going to lock arms with you on my blog as well.
I like where Anne says "the heart comes before the words. before the song. and well before the weekend service."
I'm just not sure I know exactly how to unpack that in my day to day job. Not that it is my job. I know that is the Holy Spirits.
Great blog!
For some churches the purpose of Sunday morning may be to teach and make diciples. While all churches want to do this, some churches focus on it as a primary driver for coporate worship. It all depends on the vision of the church and trusting the leaders to hear from God what he wants of them.
2. Absolutely, 100%.
However, I do believe our hearts need to be aware fully of the engagement before the gathering. It's like struggling with sin with no scripture. We're blinded very easily.
That's all for now. I'm sure I'll be back later.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
2. If I count as a person, then yes. I can't speak for anyone else.
As far as the lights and things, I'm not against them, as long as that's not the focus. If there is more time emphasized on perfecting the A/V than there is on the actual songs, or the sermon, haven't we defeated the purpose? We have to stay clear of the fine line between worship with lights and pictures, and a rock concert. Again, I'm not against them. I am a man and sometimes seeing things works better than just hearing them. VISUAL VISUAL VISUAL. Yet again..be careful. That is all..
2) Yes
2. I believe God can do this, yes, but I don't think that fancy productions are necessary for God to do this. For some people, it may work. For me, it's a huge distraction.
And I know we can get into diagreements about legalism and calling and different things drawing in different types of people, but I cannot get past the fact that by spending money on "production values," churches are therefore not spending that specific money on Biblically-mandated activities like caring for the helpless and vulnerable.
And you are right. Foam or no foam.
Some days I wish we would just strip down the lights all together.
I like where Anne says “the heart comes before the words. before the song. and well before the weekend service.”"
i think it can be sort of a circular thing, where our worship services serve as first a catalyst for change in people's hearts and encouragement to take the steps to feed and develop that heart change during the week. when we return, our hearts are ready to worship God corporately and be fed in that environment, as we are at the same time encouraged once again to continue to develop our hearts throughout the next week. from there the cycle perpetuates itself. i hope that made sense...
2. Yes, just as God is there in the midst of a worship gathering at that village in Uganda you talked about. I don't try to limit where God will or won't show up.
I as well sometimes just feel guilty about the huge lights and great visual experiences that sometimes are offered within the church. Sometimes I just need a stripped down, campfire worship set. Nothing but an acoustic guitar and a voice to lead our worship through song.
Just remember, as a christians it is our own responsibility to take ownership in our walk and in our ministry. Not the church's.
If none of what I said makes any sense, I apologize, its past my bed time. This post has me intrigued.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
1. The purpose is to follow the spiritual discipline of community (Heb. 10) and to follow the model of JESUS at the Sermon on the Mount where everyone from gawkers to devoted followers attended.
2. I actually argue that miracles Jesus performed and the art of his teaching are in line with what I have seen at your church. And, we should make "HIS PRAISE GLORIOUS" so it is in line with the Bible, pretty much.
What I do think is wrong with the things is not that churches have them. Its that churches don't really know how to use them. Like christian movies that are half as good as the secular equivalent.
Its that a church worries more about spending hrs on putting words on a screen then they are about teaching about the tough subjects.
The group that usually says we need all of these things says we need to roll with the flow, my only question to them is: Why is it about what the Church can do for you and not how You can grown the church?
Now if Los is leading, none of these apply because he is SOOOO good.
Take care man!
Building community for believers and those that aren't. within that framework we can encourage one another and continue to "spur" one another on to good works.
Building community where outsiders are welcomed and exposed to God's story.
You want "deeper"? Join a small group family.
2) YES YES YES a thousand times yes! God uses many different avenues to arrest our hearts, tough what He uses in Uganda can be rfadically different thab what He uses in Georgia. Why? Different strokes for...what you talkin bout, Willis?
2. Absolutely. But, let's be careful that those are just tools and not the focus. A delicate balance for sure.
Been wrestling with all this myself.
http://reson8.org/2007/tired-orphans-blood/
2.) Absolutely! Yes to all! I think the fine line however, is making sure we show people that worship is about Jesus, not production value.
1. Worship God with other believers and move people closer to Christ.
2. Yes, but it's an easy line to blur.
It was not a worship tune.
1. To meet God at level unachievable without the body. Worship is acknowledging HIM in every aspect of one's life.
2. Lights,video,loudness,hazers,bass...are just a venue to relate to a specific people group. To plug or unplugg that is the questions. Sometimes I want to be energized, sometimes I want to be broken. Are you, we, I being effective? To be entertained means to not think, if I am thinking honestly it's about myself, in a worship setting if I am not thinking about myself it is easier to focus on worship.
I agree that we really could use a more balanced approach so that we don't leave out the older generation. It's a tough balancing act.
So, I guess what I'm saying is this. If you're a rock star, don't waste your time evaluating the opportunity cost of the time spent to perfect your riff, in lieu of planting corn to feed the world, make that riff perfect and trust God to place a farmer with a thing for rock music, lights, high def screens, and fog machines in the pew/purple chair.
2. Yes! Yes! Yes! I cannot even count over the years the number of people who tell me how the music/media ministry of our church had a huge part of them coming to Christ. They know it's not about the amazing light show, and the rockin' guitars, but it made them want to come back and listen to God's word.
Honestly, this whole discussion really ticks me off. I have been a music/media pastor's wife for over 10 years and the way that people on Anne's site so flippantly talk about worship pastor's and their roles and hearts gets me very on edge. If each one of these people could wait to judge after seeing the hours of prayer, time, researching, more prayer, rehearsals, study and sweat that goes into creatively engaging worshippers each week, they would hesitate to speak so freely on their 2 cents.
The proof is in the lives being changed, the community, and the gospel reaching a lost generation. Sorry, this is so long, I just love the musicians and the techies that God allows to use their gifts each and every week. Not to mention, I love lots of lights and loud music.
I attend a small church (growing quickly) that's pushing 400. Our ministry philosophy (which is emphasized over and over again) is that "everything we do is about people" - every note, every light, ever word, every prop, every decision, every dollar spent, every dollar saved, etc. - it's all about them, not us. Which combined with a beautiful desire to bring glory and honor to God day in and day out makes for a very balanced approach (regardless of what the critics say).
The evidence is in changed lives.
That being said, I know people who can't stand the lights/etc. There are people who find comfort in reading text out loud as a congregation. There's nothing wrong with this, but I personally don't feel connected through it. I don't like singing out of a hymnal, but I do like it when hymns are brought into today's music and used.
The thing is...it's so personal. What ever YOU like, connect with, etc etc....GO FIND IT. Don't judge a church, big or small for not doing something right or in God's honor...that's not our job. God is bigger than that, and he meets people in big churches, small churches, alive churches and dead churches. He is capable of anything.
1. Sunday is a celebration gathering - thanking God for what He has done, and what we by faith know He will do. We aim for a very upbeat, celebrative tone. Sunday is not the full extent of our worship, but it is an important expression of our corporate (family) worship.
2. We are in relationship with an absolutely creative God. He chose to reveal Himself through creativity and beauty so 'YES' we certainly can engage people with these expressions - God did.
thanks for the blog and keeping us thinking
I also agree that God has blessed churches nationwide with the staff and gifts that they have to be able to create that type of setting. As a body of Christ we should be open to use any and every resource possible to connect people to God.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
Right, and I know that most churches like yours probably do. But the global church is clearly not fulfilling its God-given mission to care for the least of these. We just aren't. There are babies dying of diarrhea and people in prison who never have visitors and families that can't escape from poverty no matter how hard they work. We may be doing it in some places, with some of our resources, but the vast majority of us (and I include myself in this) are not living the kind of sold-out lives that say that every child on the other side of the world's welfare is more important than whether I have the newest gadgets, nor are we attending churches that make ending global suffering more of a budget priority than keeping the lights on and paying salaries of huge numbers of staff members.
Kyle, I totally agree that God calls different people in different ways. Foam or no foam or no latte in the first place. Different styles and different preachers are going to be what draw people in. But I'm just not sure that church is supposed to be about "growth" in the way that we've gotten accustomed to thinking about it. And I'm not sure that marketing worship to make people comfortable is the model Jesus gave us.
When you talk about growth, I guess I need you to explain just a little bit more on what you mean. For me, I believe God would like for the church body to grow, as long as his kingdom is growing. However, we cannot expect these people that are coming into our church for the first time to believe what we believe. We are only called to love them and to be a river of life in their life and help connect them with God, no matter what that looks like. If that love is through amazing crazy worship with huge lights, which one can create a worship environment that is full of connection, and two can also create great discussion topics for someone new within the church. Not always will what we do be glorifying to God in the way we might "plan" or expect it to, but it can still be glorifying and honoring to Him.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
Again, we are called love everyone. To build His kingdom everywhere.
2.) To me it all falls on leadership. You can have the most bad a$$ production but without a strong leader your worship times will become a great Christian concert that people watch...not participate in.
You need to have someone who can break down the invisible wall, reach out and grab the congregation, and lead them to the throne. I think we give congregations too much credit. We think they know what it means to engage the heart of God during worship and the majority usually don't. Now, if we teach them and truly LEAD them in giving God His worth, not just lead them in a verse and hooky chorus, then overtime they'll begin to go there without our promptings. If you can have that in a Worship Pastor and enhance it with the production...watch out!
http://rockerandtheologian.blogspot.com
So that leads to the question - What is the weekend worship service for?
I believe it is a place for all to experience and connect. To experience and connect with God, His children, and those that are seeking. I don't believe one can come sit in a service and immediately jump out into a home group. One must experience community first, before they will ever take on the challenge of sitting down in a small group of people they have never met.
Small groups, or whatever you may call them, have statistically struggled in the US church, because we tend to lack genuine community in our weekend service. When you look at the stats you will discover it is a rare church that has more than 35-40% of their church body actively engaged in a home group. There is a bit of good news, in that we have seen a trend upward over the past couple years. I believe most of that can be attributed to the massive push to establish and build genuine and authentic community by many of our churches.
So, what is the value of lights, camera, action, so to speak in our weekend service? I believe it helps people connect. The camera helps people to see the visual expression, inflection and movement of the pastor, worship leader etc. It brings the environment of the large room to a much more personal level.
Much of the lighting is essential to the camera and video quality. Lighting also helps establish the atmosphere of the room. With lighting I can build the atmosphere to a place where people engage and scream out the praises of God, or I can pull it back to a place where in that quite, still moment, the feeling of no one else around but you and God, the heart begins to melt and God is allowed, maybe for the first time, to speak to the individual. In that moment, which I have seen countless times, brokenness comes and the bitterness of the heart slides off and newness springs forth.
I must also tell you that while production should never supersede the message...it must also never take a complacent seat in the car. You have to ensure that lighting is timed correctly and that the quality is high. Because the last thing needed in a moment like I described above is for a missed cue or program to run that flashes lights all over the room. You have to use production and technology in a manner that reflects the mood and atmosphere of the moment. You cannot allow for it to distract.
# 2 - I highly believe that a person connects to God uniquely in worship and music. It is through this time that God showers His love onto the individual. I know of no better way to engage God than through worship. He is the ultimate and deserves nothing less than our devoted worship.
The thing that I believe stands out to me most about God is that He is uniquely creative. He created the heavens and the earth. He created the beasts of the field, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea... and He created you and me.
In all of that knowledge, how can we wonder if God likes creative things? He is the master of creativity. I know that His hearts leaps when His creation steps out in creativity to share His love and reach those He wants to reach.
Is it not unlike the proud moment in a fathers life, when he notices his son holding the fork the same way He does or putting his clothes on the same way he does etc.?
So to wonder if God can engage His people on a creative level or by a creative means..... is much like wondering if a car can really run on gas?
We were created by a hugely creative God, using highly creative means, and in all of that we cannot run from the creativity that is divinely embedded into each of us.
2. In a perfect world, our Bible alone would suffice to induce powerful worship...it works in the 3rd world. What would happen if Christians expressed their contentment, not only in the worship service, but also with their daily lives? What if we were to forsake our McMansions and took over the trailer parks sharing with everyone that no one would have need? I'm a little tired of looking to the government to accomplish the Church's call to care for the poor...and at the same time, I write this from my McMansion on my laptop, etc, etc, etc. I'm discouraged that my faith will only stretch to the point that I'm confortable...then I find excuses. Screw comfort...live for Jesus. I'm working on it.
The original church was a place where Believers would come in and worship, not the thousand other things that we sometimes try to accomplish in a 60 minute period.
It was a time to renew the spirit, strengthen the conviction to follow the teachings of Christ, and give the Believers the strength they needed to "go out".
When we meet on Sunday morning we should be engaged in worship (in my opinion).
That doesn't mean that I don't think the church has other responsibilities, it does, but at other times.
1. be careful about being proud of what buckhead church is doing. it's not that you're not doing great things...just be careful...I love you and what you do..don't want to see it get more important than everything else
2. Weekend gatherings....well, to promote bonding and fellowship. We are supposed to step out of our comfort zone and get to know people we have yet to meet. (right?) We are to grow closer with God...Together
3. What was that question again? (scrolled up...got it) Yes, I think God can reach a person's heart through production, etc... I played drums at and attended Crossroads Chruch in Corona back in '03....then went to my current church and almost didn't go back because the music was so bad and I could NOT connect....I play drums at my church in hopes to help....when I feel I am not helping, I am done....not the point, but a comment. There are those in a service who are distracted w/life and worries......that is merely part of our job, but is our responsibility all the same......help these souls release their worries and worship God.
This post has really made me think since I first read it Sunday night and since I can seem to shake it I decided I would post, sorry for the length.
In response to Number 1, God clearly desires that his followers gather in corporate worship 'WHERE TWO OR MORE ARE GATHERED...". Sunday morning at Church is a chance to commune not only with God but to gather in one of the few places, at least for me, that the cares of the outside world tend to disappear and I am able to focus on something completely different and much larger & more important than me. While I am sure that many folks would say that I should find other time for that and I do, but it is absolutely the one time where no phone will ring, email arrive or a kid's scream and it is is precious to me. Sunday also give those of us not called to full time ministry a chance to serve the Church and hopefully offer a vision of selfless service.
On question 2, my heart has been laid bare more times by a video clip, performance art or a song that really captures the picture of Christ's love for us than by any other element in a worship service. I think that God works with the tools of the day, whether it was the hands of artist in the Middle Ages, the beautiful concerts of Mozart or Beethoven, or simply a church choir raising their voices in praise. I grew up attending traditional protestant churches throughout the South and I think one of the primary problems facing the local church is that it has failed to modernize and recognize that for many people the traditional piano and organ are a passe' and that for many non-believers it is not just not getting it done. Instead these folks are turning away from the Church simply because they believe it has lost touch with modern times. Consequently, I believe that some churches are recognizing that this multi-media generation is in need of constant technological stimulation, Twitter anyone, and has decided to meet those needs in a worship environment that either sparks an interest in our heavenly father, furthers their relationship with him, or most importantly brings them into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I have seen this happen at Buckhead and look forward to what's next.
As to the questions Los posses:
1. I think the book of Titus answers what the purpose of the Church is. Paul doesn't give a lot of answers as to how some of this should be worked out, but he makes it clear what churches should do. The thing that struck me the most as I read through it was that we should teach our people how to excel at doing good works. How to meet the urgent needs of others. The other thing that is stressed is to live humble, godly lives so that we have a good witness among the unbelievers around us. To live in a way that leaves no room for others to despise us. Paul says that these are the things that we should teach our people. It may seem over simplified, but I don't know of many churches who are just focusing on these things.
2. I absolutely believe that God can engage the hearts of people through all of the items Los mentions. God has engaged my heart through them and I know that He has in others as well. But I think that He can equally engage us without them. My fear is that we get people thinking that they can't connect with God without all of those things. I know that for me, I can start to have a hard time worshiping God without those things if I'm not careful. Another fear of mine on this topic is that we try so hard to create a relevant environment for seekers that we remove the onus of evangelism from our people. I'm not saying that we should throw away our "invest and invite" strategies, but I do think that we are producing a generation of Christians who have no idea how to personally share Christ with others because we've taught them that their job is just to get people to church and we'll take care of the rest.
So, like I said, I wrestle with all of this, but I don't mean to put down any other church's methods. The last thing we need is to be throwing rocks at each other's methods. As long as Christ is your goal, then we're all on the same team.
2. In regards to worship.....what a privilege to be able to sharpen one another and ask these important questions. The Lord looks at our hearts and I do believe that different churches are "called" to minister in different ways. How we invite God's people into His presence through song will also look very different. I think it is so important to remember that whatever lights we have or don't have...whatever style we present...it's just all about Him. If the rocks cry out...then I pretty much don't need anything more than a heart longing to worship my Savior. If the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is alive in me and YOU...then we pretty much don't need anything more than the power of the Holy Spirit at work (hopefully) in and through us...drawing the lost, calling each name...and causing us to hunger for more of Him. Are the lights and the music and sound wrong? Of course not:) He loves us. If we invite him according to His word... there He will be in our midst. I believe that people can be saved from the first note played on a guitar. We don't need the "stuff," we just need more of Him. Sometimes we try hard to create an "environment" for people through worship. Doesn't the Lord just want to exalt him....for wherever two or more gather in his name, there he is in our midst...just waiting for us to listen, to linger, and to leave filled and blessed.
It's awesome to have so much technology at your disposal.If the Lord is calling your church to worship with lights and visual art...then it sounds like you need to do it with everything you've got! And so you are.
We all just need to be good stewards with what God has given to us.
2. I think God uses us in spite of us...so yes. Personally would I want it for a Lord's Day celebration, no...its about meeting Him that day. I just think Sunday morning is set apart, but I would love to worship in that manner at some other time. I was raised that way...I do have a soft spot for it. I just see Sunday morning for a different focus...HIM.
Such good questions!