Ragamuffin Soul - Latest Comments in Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

A Friend — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:11:11 -0000

Wait a minute--

The sin of "Bearing False Witness" is serious enough to be one of the Ten Commandments. There is no Commandment against homosexuality.

Is not the sin of lying to his wife for the past thirty years (which breaks the Commandments) a greater sin than finally admitting to homosexuality?

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Jonathan — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:28:12 -0000

Why can't we just call a sin a sin. Ray has ruined his reputation and witness. I hold nothing back with this. He needs prayer and needs to repent of this horrible sin. I am not politically correct and don't care to be. Not being rude, just honest. Scripture tells us right and wrong and the gay lifestyle is wrong. It is condemned over and over.(1 Cor. 6, Rom 1, Lev 18&20"it is an abomination") We don't make the moral rules, God does and He describes clearly what homosexuality is. I am not judging just stating fact. If people don't like it, take it up with God. Pray about it and He will open your eyes that have been clouded over by society and the "god" of this world.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

AJ — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:25:14 -0000

@David:

You need to tone it down. Chose your words and tone carefully because it comes across hateful with such a sensative subject. Just say'n.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

David — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:02:44 -0000

You know, I'm a little tired of so many people making accusations of "judging" because of those who say that homosexuality is a sin. Judging is making your own call on something. If I was walking down the street and saw a guy with a pink t-shirt and said, "Oh, he's homosexual," then that would be judging because I really don't know. But stating what the Bible says about homosexuality (that it's bad) isn't judging-it's just repeating God's opinion, which is the only one that matters. On top of that, the Bible says that God "desires truth in the inward parts." God wants not just the outside sins (the actions) dealt with, but the inside (desires, cravings), too. He wants to set us all straight with whatever sins we struggle with.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

davemiers — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:59:23 -0000

http://www.gregstier.org/ra...

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

carie — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:22:20 -0000

I really enjoy your postings, Aaron. Don't worry about the length, b/c you write really great, interesting stuff! :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Aaron — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:06:40 -0000

@Ashley

"My comment previously about our generation wallowing in “cheap grace” is that we have cheapened grace. We have taken the notion that just because it is “free” it gives us license to sin and that makes it okay."

The truth is that we as humans have no power to cheapen grace. How can we cheapen such an amazing act by Jesus? We just can't cheapen that... he died for us knowing that we were all filthy sinners and that we would continue to be so until called to heaven at the end.

I never meant that Jesus did not pay a hefty price for the grace that is free to us... quite the opposite, meaning that he paid a price that only he could pay because he knew that we would never be able to add up enough to make the payment ourselves.

Further, Jesus came to set us free and to give us freedom. Free means free! Therefore, I do believe that we are free to continue sinning or not sinning (which I wish I could master!). However, I do not think it is ok to sin, as sin is sin and therefore never ok. However, we are free to turn to Christ in a situation or not. We are free to trust him in every area of our every day or not. I do not think we have a license to sin without consequence. There are always consequences for what we do... however, after becoming a christian if you should continue to sin one of the consequences that you may face IS NOT LOSING THE LOVE OF GOD OR THE GIFT OF HIS GRACE. Will there be other consequences... oh goodness YES... and I wish I were not living with them every day. Regardless, I am still experiencing his love and grace admidst my consequences.

The beauty about Jesus and his death on the cross is that he did it knowing full well what you and I were like before salvation and even how we would be after salvation. He did not do it because he thought that if he did we would stop sinning and be perfect... he knew that would never happen!

Now... to follow up on my comment that if we are free in Christ, then we are free to either sin or not to sin... I want to clarify a bit. I do believe that when a person truly encounters such a love that will continue even if they sin that they will begin to change and so will the actions, the notion of producing fruit. However, the change does not come because of mastering sin and never sinning again but rather the change comes in the heart and how we begin to relate to God.

I truly believe that our Christian walks are so much more about our hearts and our daily relationship with God rather than about our actions and our sin. Our hearts and relationship with God are a work in progress.

My counselor often states to me "Aaron, we are looking for progress not perfection during this life... as perfection will only come in death when we go meet our Saviour!" That line has freed me up so much from the trappings of religion and trying to earn favor in God eyes... that I can finally talk with God and relate with him instead of hiding from him in fear as though he were a task-master keeping a list and checking it twice... Praise JESUS that he is GOD and not Santa! Cause if he were like Santa... not only would I not have presents under the tree, I would not even have a dang tree!

Ok so apparently I cannot write a short post... sorry! But this all means so much to me... cause only over the past year have I begun to experience freedom and grace. And I hate that I lost so much time along the way because of good-intentioned people telling me to quit sinning or else God will get me and remove the blessing from me.... Oh wow... which brings up a whole other subject... blessings are not things we earn... cause if they were we would never get any! Blessings are what God gives to us inspite of us never being able to earn them... hence the reason they are blessings and not wages earned from good works.

Ok for real sorry... I am done! I need to take a breath! Ha ha ha

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Les — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:42:30 -0000

@AJ

Every time you post I'm impressed with something. I would add that when we mess up and our heart (which only God knows) is not to, we are already forgiven. It's not something we have to beg for. I've had many times where I've repeated sins I would love to be forever free from, but am not yet, and I've come to thank God for forgiving me as opposed to asking Him to do what He's already done.

As has been said before, and which there is no harm in repeating, God's grace is way more enormous than we can imagine. And only He knows how He's going to sort it all out. So I've decided that I'm not going to judge people, even if I think they're "continuing in sin." That's because I'm SO not worthy to do so. I have my own struggles. I'm not about to criticize those whose struggle is exponentially more difficult than mine.

My understanding of Scripture is that homosexual acts are sinful acts. I'll apply that to me, not to others. Even those who are "unrepentant." They are in God's hands, not mine. I'll love them, and support them if they want it, and leave them alone if they don't. I believe I'll be pleasantly surprised when I get to heaven and find friends there that I was afraid wouldn't go. I'll love God all the more for that.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

AJ — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:54:11 -0000

@Ashley:

Grace IS free to us. And, in all practical purposes we are free to sin, and God will still love us the same. I want to understand Isaiah 64:6 a little bit better. It says that our righteous act are filthy rags. To me, when we rely on our actions to somehow determine our standing before God we take on a "me" centered gospel that says we have something to do with our redemption. Not the case at all. Still sorting through all of this and not saying I will continue in sin because of this truth either.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Ashley — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:17:53 -0000

@Aaron
My comment previously about our generation wallowing in "cheap grace" is that we have cheapened grace. We have taken the notion that just because it is "free" it gives us license to sin and that makes it okay. And it wasn't free either. Someone had to pay the price. We loose sight of that.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Mr. Police Man — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:25:21 -0000

by: Russ Breimeier
ChristianityToday.com

"I've gotta start by saluting my colleague Ted Olsen, the News Director for Christianity Today magazine. He's a true newshound when it comes to finding articles—nothing slips by him. Just this past Friday, he sent me a message asking if I was planning to do any coverage concerning Ray Boltz, the best-selling inspirational singer from the '80s and '90s long associated with Promise Keepers.

As it turns out, Ray Boltz openly announced that he is gay in an exclusive interview with the Washington Blade, a gay and lesbian publication. You can read more and find a link to the interview in our Scoop news wrap-up. After retiring from Christian music in 2004, Boltz settled matters with his family, quietly divorcing his wife in 2005. He apparently still has the love and support of his family, according to the story in the Blade.

Talk about your bombshells. Over the weekend, I kept thinking, Oh man … God, how am I going to address this one in the newsletter next week?

Homosexuality is a hot-button topic that polarizes many in the Church, the primary source of contention being whether you believe that gay people are embracing a lifestyle that they know to be sinful or that they're embracing the way God made them. Just to let you know where I'm coming from as an evangelical Christian, I believe homosexuality is wrong, just as I believe any sin is wrong. But believe me, the last thing I want is a flood of e-mails trying to argue one side or the other. There are better places to openly debate this subject than my mailbox. (The posted responses at CT's blog concerning Boltz demonstrates the varied reactions.)

For the scope of this newsletter, I'm more interested in what the fan reaction will be to the news about Boltz. Many will say the singer's future work should be ignored from now on, unless he reverses his position. Christian Music Today is inclined to agree, though Boltz has already retired from music.

On the other hand, this news does not negate our past coverage of Ray Boltz—we've only reviewed one of his albums, 2002's Songs from the Potter's Field, in our 9-year history. By the same token, I wonder how many of you will still be blessed by Boltz's past work. Will you still listen to his albums or still sing his songs in church?

It's a little ironic that Boltz is best known for "Thank You," the hit song he wrote about the cloud of witnesses we'll meet in heaven someday, testifying to how we play some small part in building one another up for God's kingdom. I can't say whether Boltz will be there or not—God is his judge, not me. But Boltz has still inspired many with his music, if not led them to the Lord through his songs. For that much, I think people can still sing "Thank You," to encourage others in their walk and in gratitude for Boltz's past contributions to Christian music."

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Les — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:54:57 -0000

@Aaron
RE: "I praise the God that loves me so much that he would reconcile me and decide to offer me the FREE gift of his grace even knowing that I would continue to sin! And I praise the God that does not require perfection of me but substitutes his for me so that I would have the chance to make it."

YES! That whole thing was GOOD. I'm going back to read it again...

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

David — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:18:38 -0000

Hi Los! It's me... David, your buddy from Sandals. Thanks for putting me on blast!!! Ha ha ha. Looks like a good discussion!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

IfYou'reHappyAndYouKnowIt — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:52:15 -0000

Anonymous Mom-

Email me @ stategrl66@yahoo.com & I'll give you the address I use regularly!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Les — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:34:29 -0000

@Matt
Hypothetical? There are two positive comments from people who claim to have been helped by EI. There is you. I know nothing of it yet except what I've read here so I need more information. But your words are more infused with bitterness than reason, while theirs seem to contain a great deal of peace, however poignant.

Your rage seems barely contained, evidenced in the very selective way you've read the comments posted. You twist the words and ignore intent. Why? How do you know what everyone needs? How do you know what my heart contains? Or AJ's?

And if you don't want to play, why return the serve?

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Anonymous mom — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:46:59 -0000

@ IfYou'reHappyAndYouKnowIt - Agreed... but teens have never known when they're playing with fire (I sure didn't). I am most assuredly praying for my son's protection daily.

I'd love to have your email if you're willing to share it.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Matt Algren — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:18:39 -0000

In response to Les's question: I'm not about to engage in hypothetical tennis with you. You speak of homosexuality as if it were an infirmity to be overcome or a personal failure to be forgiven. It is neither.

I oppose Exodus International and other parts of the ex-gay industry because they prey on people at their most vulnerable. And instead of helping them, Exodus International applies spiritual and psychological torture. This is not outrageous hyperbole, it is fact. When applied as prescribed, Exodus International teachings actively harm people.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Aaron — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:45:22 -0000

Well, well, what an interesting string of comments.... first of all to the comment about people nowadays living in cheap grace... of course it is cheap grace... IT WAS FREE!!! And thank Jesus for it being FREE as I could not personally pay the price that his grace is truly worth!

Further, it should be noted that nothing we do that is "good" can make God love us more, nor can anything that we do that is "bad" can make him love us less. He loves us regardless of our sin and that is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins... including homosexuality, pride, gluttony, murder, lying, etc. Until we all understand that our relationship with Christ is not about us being "good" but about His Righteousness and Love we will constantly fight over who is better than who and how I am getting better and sinning less and that other people aren't. This life in Christ is about so much more than that... it is about FREEDOM in him and relationship with him no matter where we are in each of our lives!

Sin is sin. We all sin and therefore are all sinners. Even after salvation we continue to sin and will do so as long as we breathe on this earth. However, God loves us regardless and continues to pursue us day in and day out. I do believe that knowing that you will sin is different than accepting sin in your life and saying "oh well!" Resignation is not what we have been called to.... JESUS CALLED US TO RECONCILIATION!!! Reconciliation to him and reconciliation to others.

I praise the God that loves me so much that he would reconcile me and decide to offer me the FREE gift of his grace even knowing that I would continue to sin! And I praise the God that does not require perfection of me but substitutes his for me so that I would have the chance to make it. I praise the same God that loves Ray and is in pursuit of his heart in all things and sees him as his child whom he loves and cherishes and not as filth... cause God sees the blood of Christ on Ray and not Ray's sin!

With all that said... I have struggled with addiction my whole life... from drugs and alcohol to sexual issues and pornography. From the sinful impact of sexual abuse as a child to the horrible effects of me not letting God meet me in the midst of my struggles and sin. Not until I saw no other choice did I invite God in to meet me where I was did I realize that had I had people in my church that would love me inspite of my sins and hold me instead of molest me and speak loving truth over me instead of judgmental words of hate and pity. I do believe that had I seen Christ's love through people that "GOT IT" sooner that I would have likely been able to avoid much of the pain I have caused myself.

Thank God for giving me loving people that finally saw the truth that God desired relationship with me just as he desired relationship with them, even though they had a hard time getting over the fact that some of my sins were seemingly much worse than theirs. Through Christ's strength and urging they did get past it and chose to love me regardless of my sins and choices just as Jesus did. Once they did that something spectacular happened... I started to change once day at a time, well actually one choice at a time.

God is delivering me one relationship and loving rebuke at a time, one counseling session at a time and one small group meeting at a time. God is speaking to me in ways that I thought were impossible because I had believed the lies and hatred that told me that I was not welcome in the body of Christ until I was perfect and no longer struggled with sin, at least not openly!

I just pray that some of the people that truly get and understand the true RADICAL NATURE OF THE GOSPELL get to Ray before too many other Christians bombard him and speak good intentioned half-truths over him... May God meet him in the midst of his struggle. May God meet all of us in our struggles!!! That is the beauty of this thing we call a personal relationship with Christ! It is life-changing... even if slowly from day to day... it is still life changing nonetheless.

I know I have written a lot but this strikes a cord in me and really brings back so many things from my life. I just praise God that people finally showed me the love that God wanted to show me and have helped set my feet on a firm foundation and move toward Christ.

I will also tell you that the Church must realize that for every one Ray, there is probably 5 others sitting ont he sidelines afraid to say anything or to ask for help. Let us love those people that openly deal with homosexuality and all sins for that matter in such a way that others would finally see that they can come to us as Christians brothers and sisters and ask us to walk with them and love them towards Christ in their own struggles with homosexuality and other sins. You may not see them but they are watching you and reading your words on here... trust me I was one of them not too long ago!

Much love in Christ! And now I will quit with the long thesis! Sorry!
Aaron

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

IfYou'reHappyAndYouKnowIt — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:28:10 -0000

@ Anonymous Mom- for some reason, that age encourages being gay as your only defining characteristic. And, sadly, being "gay" has become a trend that denotes popularity and acceptance. As someone who has taken this journey through hills and valleys it is hard to see this new generation take on such a large issue with such irresponsibility. My niece makes comments about wanting to have a "gay" friend at school- to which I don't respond because I don't want having a gay "aunt" to be her defining characteristic. At 15, he is still looking to find his own way- pray for his protection while we're praying for you. I'd be happy to give you my email if you need it.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

carie — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:10:25 -0000

Thanks for the follow-up Kyle P! I appreciate your response and clarification. :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Anonymous mom — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:03:56 -0000

I've posted comments to Los's blog before (and have read for months), but since I'm going to discuss something only my closest friends know, I'll post anonymously today.

My 15 year old son came out to me just before Christmas last year.

I, like many of you, have gay friends (some Christian). I have one friend who has done his best to be a friend to my son and be a good influence (this man is a celibate gay Christian), but my son has decided that "gay" is the most important adjective in his self-definition.

I have often thanked God for not asking me (personally) to bear this particular cross. I know my friend would love nothing more than to marry and be a father -- but that's not who he is. Now God has given this cross to my son, and he's chosen to turn his back on God and go his own way. It's heartbreaking. It's sad to know the ostracism your child will face, but to have him say he's agnostic on top of it... that's so much worse. You look back and wonder if there's something you did wrong as a parent. There are no answers; there is no comfort. All I can do is pray for my son, and be the best mother I can.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

IfYou'reHappyAndYouKnowIt — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:52:35 -0000

Should be focusing on school work- but once again, Los' blog has my attention diverted...ahh!

I sat and read the newest post post from Anonymous, wondering what the HECK people were talking about "AJ" and "Ray"- and then realized that THIS was the post that I missed. So, I'm here to start at the root of this discussion (I also responded to the other post).

I am a christian- and a lesbian. I "struggled", for lack of a better word, for a long time with what I had been taught VS. what I knew to be true for myself. I was raised in a christian home, with God fearing parents & a true love for Christ. When I came to terms with being a lesbian I did a lot of reading, questioning, & picking other people's minds to find out what everyone else thought of the "issue". In the midst, I found MY truth. And while the shoe may not fit anyone else, it fits snug as a bug for me. Here is my truth:

I am a God fearing woman that was saved at the age of 16, and has learned to better understand the heart of God as a servant for other people. I believe that you cannot lose your religion, so my salvation is secure. I believe that we become Christians in order to tell others about Christ & inherit HIS kingdom. Which then begs the question- if I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am a Christian, and I tell others about Christ through working with others to spread the gospel- then why does being a lesbian become my defining characteristic? That was the question that I had to answer for myself. After looking to others for their guidance, I found that I only needed HIS guidance. I was so focused on the way that others defined me, that I forgot to look back to his truths.

Awhile back, I got into a discussion with a youth pastor's wife about homosexuality. I asked her what she ultimately thought about me- knowing all of the facts (I was saved, I told others about Christ, I was actively seeking the heart of God)- and here's what she said.
"I just think living in sin constitutes a life distant from God."
"Do you think I'm going to hell when I die?"
"No, I just think you won't be as close to him as you could be."
"Like, I'll be down the hall or something?" "So you think Heaven is layered based on how bad of a person you were?"
"Well no, I just think you won't be as close to him as you should be, that's all."

That's when I started finding my own truth in The Word. I think everyone, gay or straight, has their own reasons for the things they do. The reason someone marries an abusive husband could be the reason that someone chooses women over men. The list goes on. Perhaps we should focus on the real truth of Christ, and inheriting his kingdom- rather than judging WHY people do what they do.

@ Les- I don't think that Matt was saying EI doesn't work as much as he was saying that they have a greater number of cases where people resume being gay than those converted. And a lot of people feel that's because it doesn't resolve the "real" issue, it just suppresses the urge to act on being gay. While I've never tried any of those types of programs, I had a friend who committed suicide after coming out of EI because of the added confusion.

Those are my thoughts. Thanks, Los, for giving us a space to share ideas and beliefs with other people. Now I'm going to TRY to get back to work!!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Chet — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:18:01 -0000

I guess I didn't keep it as short as I thought. Sorry... :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Chet — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:16:55 -0000

I'll keep this short. I've never heard of your site before and came across it when my brother told me that Ray Boltz, one of my favorite singer-songwriters of my youth. This is the most positive discussion I've read on the subject and thank you to all of you for remaining civil. However, it doesn't matter what any of us think. It matters what God thinks. If you and I don't accept that, then pretty much nothing else you can say or think on the topic matters. And clearly God still loves each person no matter the sin, but many of us Christians have lost all respect for God and forgotten how holy He is and what He calls us to. We must reject sin and try to draw nearer to God so He will draw closer to us. Sin is what separates us. If it didn't, there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. If we truly love Ray and others in this situation we will show love. We will not reject them. But if we truly love them, we will not accommodate the sin. I've had many friends who were gay. I've seen families torn apart by this particular sin, as I have by other sins. If we love the Lord first and foremost he will help us "overcome". Sadly, this rush to acceptance of homosexuality is being birthed more out of political correctness than true Christian "Agape" love. I pray that we will love first, judge last but hold true to the truth that never changes. :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Ray Boltz Comes Out

Shayne — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:01:16 -0000

Lile,

I would think it would be much the same as anything else. For a person to be redeemed, they first have to realize there is a need for it. If they don't think they're sinners then why do they need a Saviour?

So far, the church has not been so great at showing the world it's need for a Saviour. But it sure has been great at shoving the Saviour down people's throats.

I think the best we can do for anyone is to be real. Stand firm in who you are, but be real.