DISQUS

truitt · 2 years ago

about obama, i think…

1) he is going to make america better.
--OR--
2) he is the antichrist.

i will probably vote for him.

S. Pihlaja · 2 years ago

Obama's too tall to be President.

Robin · 2 years ago

Unsure as of right now.
1. A republican
2. A pro-lifer. Someone's gotta defend the defenseless.

Those are my two stipulations...haha, so it won't be Obama.

:-)

Los · 2 years ago

Nice thoughts. But I think if we are putting our hope in a president to defend the defensless, we are hopeless. And I am not a republican nor a democrat. I am a ragamuffin. Is that a party? ;)

joelt · 2 years ago

i think his campaign slogan should be "i'm against"...
...the thing you gotta dig about this dude is he takes on ALL comers!

Crystal Renaud · 2 years ago

i haven't decided which bumper sticker i'm getting yet but i am fairly certain it won't be one with Obama on it. that would take a lot more convincing. although charismatic and lovely he says "yes" to far too many things that go against my better judgment and moral standard. although i don't believe the government is responsible for upholding my personal standards, i can't with good conscience vote for someone who is against them.

Hillary makes me wanna vomit and most of the republicans are too white.

so... i guess i am in need of a convincing debate.

Lewis · 2 years ago

I just wanna see a candidate who has a track record for doing what they say they're going to do. If they say they're going to make something better, then do it. That's why I tend not to vote for liberals (not always). They talk a good talk, but I've never really seen any of their policies work for more than a year.

At · 2 years ago

Vote None Of The Above. They are all worthless.

Texas in Africa · 2 years ago

Carlos, I think you can only talk about politics on a religion blog if you declare that your candidate is God's candidate and that anyone who disagrees with you clearly doesn't care about the unborn/the troops/Jesus. :)

I'm still very undecided. What I know is that I want an experienced grown-up who can listen to criticism, admit when he/she is wrong, who will unequivocally commit to stop torturing war on terror suspects, and who can move us towards getting out of Iraq in a responsible fashion. It would be fantastic to get someone who can finally get us past the baby boomer politics of birth control and Vietnam. It's time to move on.

Matthew · 2 years ago

Ouch! Obama? Hmmm...

It's not decision time just yet, but I'm definitely leaning toward Huckabee. I thought his campaign was a joke at first, but the more I listen to this guy, the more I respect him. There's something incredibly genuine about him. Up to this point, he's refused to take shots at everyone around him, which I truly admire. I believe strongly in those major issues Christians rally around. I wish we could move on to subjects like fiscal policy, international policy, and campaign finance reform - but I believe each of those policies are fruit of some deeper roots of problems within our nation.

More babies were aborted in America today than American soldiers who have died in the entirety of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq - more aborted this year than Iraqi and Afghani civilian deaths as well. I don't think it has to be tit for tat, but right now it is. Policies like abortion speak to our selfishness and only continue to propagate ideas of government provision for everyone. We have an obligation as believers to take care of those needs - shame on us for letting secular humanists outserve us and letting the government give more money to meet those needs than the churched.

I've voted Democrat a couple of times in the past - mostly only local elections. I have a really hard time turning more social needs over to the government - we look more like a socialist government today than ever. I believe God designed the church for those items not the government - which is why we (in our house) take steps to try to meet those needs in our community and around the world.

Huckabee's really driving home some changes in the tax system that he believes will bring money and jobs back to the states, he stands behind the same things I do from a moral stand point, he's sincere, and he wants a reduced government. Who knows what any of them will or will be able to do when they get into office?

I'll lose some major points in this blogging community for saying this, but I do want to vote for who Jesus would vote for (and He couldn't vote for more than one either) :).

I feel pretty passionately about this stuff, but I hope I've avoided being venomous.

mjd

Rhi · 2 years ago

ragamuffin should be a party. let's mark it under "other" next election

Matthew · 2 years ago

Dang that was long...sorry....

mjd

Los · 2 years ago

well put mjd

Isaac Downing · 2 years ago

I'm not a republican or a democrat. I'm a moderate.

From the Republican side: Mike Huckabee sounds like a really good option because of his conservative financial plans and the fact that he has always had great answers in debate. He's an 'everyman' candidate. And a solid believer.

I would likely lean toward him, although I haven't picked up a 'sticker' for any candidates yet.

From the democratic side: I'm really NOT liking Obama.

I liked his personality a lot at first (and the fact that I'm from Illinois), but after reading his plans in depth, his health care reform plan is basically a new take on a socialist system. It sounds nice to get 'free' health care for everyone, but we all know nothing is free... and just raising taxes ain't the answer. It's bad for the economy.

And not to mention his lack of international experience that showed through in his debates when they asked about how to deal with terrorism (invade Pakistan? cut off trade? maybe both? maybe neither?).

And I won't even get into his views on gay marriage and abortion.

Just my two cents on why I'm leaning toward on and away from the other.

Vince · 2 years ago

Does anybody still like Alan Keyes?

Daren Painter · 2 years ago

As the un-churched person who religiously reads a nice round group of emergent bloggers and firmly believes that Jesus was a really cool dude, I must ask you all to (at the risk of incredible cliche) ask yourselves What Would Jesus Do?

Put away both Old Testament stuff and the newly created Christianity co-authored by the GOP and really search your souls about the decision we collectively face in now less than a year. I'm not out to change anyone's belief system but are the unborn really more important, RIGHT NOW, than the millions of Americans who simply cannot make ends meet or afford health insurance despite their moral standards being in good and tidy order? Am I not supporting our troops unless I vote Republican? Would Jesus, not the church, really care whether or not I am married like you all or might he raise a toast to the happy couple for loving each other, loving him and seeking to spread his love?

I've been a wallflower on the circuit of "young new church" blogs for a few months now and have always feared that these people seemed like they were ready to do God differently than the last generation but might not be telling me all their story......prove me wrong please.


Are you really approaching God differently or have you just changed the format?

Yes, I believe in Barack Obama. I'm not asking you to do the same. I am asking for genuine personal inquiry and prayer.

Thanks, y'all.

Lewis · 2 years ago

Hey, Daren! IMHO, I'm not sure Jesus would really even vote. I'm betting he didn't believe in patriotic duty. But, He really would have taken care of the unborn if it were an issue back then (He said to look after the widows and the orphans, the disenfranchised). I'm betting He would have tried to take care of the millions without health care, too (the Church did back in the days of the Book of Acts, following Christ's example and His words). And I'm pretty sure God's ticked at the Republicans and the Democrats both. And I know He would have raised a glass in toast. Good stuff.

chris g · 2 years ago

i like that short guy with big ears. he wants to build a wall around america. thats pretty cool.
oh, i could never vote for a guy named obama. im just that shallow.

Karen · 2 years ago

I like Gulliani and Obama. I guess I'll have to choose if they both become the official candidates. I am pro-life, but I have noticed that voting for supposed pro-life candidates doesn't really do anything for the helpless. I think it really is just our job (to help the helpless).

April · 2 years ago

It is refreshing to read a civil conversation about politics! Thanks guys for being mature about this. It causes me to want to research the candidates rather than walk away from the whole thing!
I firmly believe that we as believers need to be praying about who we vote for. God knows who the correct person is to lead our country, He will reveal that to us if we seek HIM.

Akash · 2 years ago

Obama on the Democratic side.
Paul in the Republican side.

Paul overall.

Dan · 2 years ago

Worst. Election. Year. Ever.

Or maybe I'm just getting old(ish).

I've never actually voted for anyone for president. I mean, I've never been enthusiastic about any candidate. I've always voted against the cats I thought would be utter disasters.

This cycle they all seem like utter disasters. The thought of dragging myself to some middle school on a cold November morning to touchscreen my way to another four years of I-don't-like-this-guy (or woman) is kinda depressing. But, hey, it's my civic duty, right?

How's that for political cynicism?

Are you really approaching God differently or have you just changed the format?

Nice post, Daren. I think we are approaching God differently (or at least trying to), but I'd also bet that most here see a divergence between God's social justice and the platforms of either American political party.

I'm with Lewis: it's hard for me to imagine Jesus voting for any of these candidates (though He'd definitely submit himself to the authority of the state). To quote Sting (back when he was good) by way of Arthur Koestler: There is no political solution to our troubled evolution.

Bill · 2 years ago

Good stuff Daren, really well put.

As for me, I really liked Obama when he first came to the scene last election, I'm glad I got to vote for him in Illinois. As a presidential candidate though he has lost some of my support as he is becoming more and more a politician and less that guy that was clearly making a difference.

I think it's really refreshing to hear guys like Mike Gravel and Ron Paul and even Kucinich talk and express their views which are so different from every other candidate. Seems they are the only ones speaking from the heart, it's too bad they don't have much public support.

I liked Mike Huckabee a lot too until recently, I just lost some respect for him with the way he handled some recent media issues.

I haven't exactly made up my mind yet, but even though he doesn't stand much of a chance I like Mike Gravel the best.

Katie P · 2 years ago

I don't have an answer yet. I haven't found a neutral place to get info on their ideas, policies, etc. All I've heard is spin. Can anyone point me in a good direction to find that?

Molly Moore · 2 years ago

I didn't think that I was going to post a comment, but here goes:

Not sure who I'm voting for, although I'm leaning toward Obama.
I'm with Dan, in that I'm not sure if there really is great choice. I'm just going to have to figure out who I think the best choice is.


Regarding this whole political thing as Christians... I'm going to suggest a book:
THE MYTH OF A CHRISTIAN NATION...How the quest for political power is destroying the church. by Gregory A. Boyd

It's a great book!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/03102673...

What others thought:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0310267307...

Adam S · 2 years ago

I met Obama a couple times when he was teaching and I was a student at University of Chicago. I never had him as a prof (I wasn't in the law school) but he did a couple lectures at the school of social work where I was. I have been pretty impressed with both positions and personality. My problem is that I am fairly socially liberal (but pro-life) and fairly conservative fiscally. So pretty much no one matched up with me. But in general I vote democrat. Edwards scares me because he is so anti-globalization. I think Obama has that tendacy because of his strong union support, but I also think that he is above all a pragmatist that really tries to understand the issues and vote accordingly. I think that Hillary has some tendancies toward Bush-like ideas of executive power.

On the republican side I am not really in favor of any of them. I don't like the anti-terrorism policies of Gulianni. I think Romeny seems a little fishy. I don't like the war policies of McCain (but if he made it through the primaries I might consider him). Huckabee isn't too bad on fiscal issues, but I just don't know much about him other than his is pro-life. That just isn't enough for me. Because the reality is that abortion is not going to be made illegal. (I am for lots of support to anti abortion clinics and support for parents that choose to have children or adopt, but making abortion illegal just isn't going to happen.)

I believe in voting, but it is going have to wait until we get some canidates. I think that my vote in the primaries probably will be mute by the time GA votes. I just hope it is not Guilianni vs Clinton because I won't have anyone that I want to vote for.

Jarrett · 2 years ago

Atta boy Barack.
This is the speech we've been waiting for since the 2004 DNC!
This is not a horrible election year as some have said - it is historic!
We have a Female Candidate and an African American Candidate that have a legitimate shot at the Office.
Regardless of if or where you fall on the political spectrum, you have to admit that it is historic.

Anna · 2 years ago

I think Huckabee, just because a lot of people I know really like him, and I trust them.

I have to vote pro-life. That's the biggest issue for me. Sorry Obama.

Texas in Africa · 2 years ago

Katie P and anyone else looking for genuinely nonpartisan analysis of candidates and what they stand for should check out two great resources:

1. Project Vote Smart, which aims to "defend voters from the manipulative and abusive tactics of today's political candidates," and

2. The League of Women Voters. Your local LWV will publish a voter guide shortly before each election in which candidates are asked exactly the same questions and given exactly the same number of words to answer. If the candidates go over the word limit, the League cuts them off mid-sentence. It's very informative and you can see who cares about the issues and who just likes to talk.

I teach American government at the college level and recommend both of these groups without reservation because they really are nonpartisan. Their interest is not in getting people to vote for a particular candidate; they just want people to be more informed citizens.

Finally, being a political scientist comes in handy!

bobby · 2 years ago

Jarrett, sorry to disagree, but so far I think the election sucks. And sorry I can't get all excited about a woman and an african-american running. I think it's great on one hand, but honestly, I could care less what color the person in the white house is, I care more about their politics and character and for me neither one of those candidates does it. And I aint votin for em so we can have a historic year.

I admit, I need to get more educated on the republican candidates. I know I don't like Guilianni, but I don't know much about the others. Unfortunately, I'm finding that I don't think I like anyone running so far. But we'll see what happens.

And I'm with Adam S. If those 2 are the option...dang.

Lu · 2 years ago

I don't know if I'm fully qualified to answer the question, "what would Jesus do?" in regards to voting (would or wouldn't) or for whom. I just know I keep talking to Him about it all and asking Him to help me make a wise choice.

For me, right now, that choice is Huckabee. I don't have a bumper sticker for my car yet (soon, though), but my blog has one. :)

I've been watching the debates so much more closely than ever before and trying to really pick someone who seems to have some integrity, and whose platform is closest to where I currently stand on the issues most important to me right now. I'm not looking for perfection any more, just good ideas and what seems to be solid character (can you ever really know till they are in office?).

And at this point Huckabee's my guy. Even if he doesn't get the nomination. I think I'll write him in. I'm just really tired of voting for either the most electable, or the lesser of two evils. I want a candidate I can actually believe in. Haven't had that since Reagan (and yes, I'm old enough to have voted for him -- in 1984).

And I have to wonder if perhaps that's not what Jesus would do as well... Not saying it totally is, 'cause I don't know. I'm just thinking that perhaps He would find the person He feels is best for the job and who stands closest to most His important issues (whatever that may be), and vote for him/her, even if it means writing them in and perhaps giving "the other guy (woman??)" the election; Standing on principle rather than party or "lesser of two evils" stuff.

I also don't think there are "Christian" and non-Christian issues, if that makes sense. I think God gives us each passion for certain issues and He wants us to use that passion to pursue solutions to them. I think we make a mistake when we claim one issue (or a set of them) "should" be primary over all others for Christians because of the God-given passion we have for that issue. That then devalues the passion He's given others for issues that don't fit into that set. Since we are one Body with different parts, would it not follow that each would have differing passions based on their role and focus? Who are we to tell another that their God-given passion isn't primary to the personal focus God has given them?

Does that make sense?

Malachi · 2 years ago

It is pretty early for me to make a concrete decision, but at the moment I am leaning towards Fred Thompson. I think I'm the first person here to say it, too. I guess I'm just a hardcore conservative. :D

lynse leanne · 2 years ago

i would love to vote, however i am canadian and not yet an american citizen...i plan on it, but you have to hold your green card for 8 years before you can apply.

all of this to say, please please please please vote! I would love to, but i cant...so take advantage of the fact that you have a voice and speak up.

that is all...i am not sure who i would vote for yet, but i will figure it out....

Adam S · 2 years ago

I agree with Lu's last point. I do think that we are passionate and have experience with different issues so we are focused on different issues. I appreciated my suburban friends that voted their values. And I really appreciated them when they allowed me to vote my values (living in the city, working in social service and living in a diverse community.) They were primarily concerned with abortion. I had a different mix of concerns. I didn't want to minimize their concern with abortion, because I am pro-life and I believe that it is important. But I also don't want them to minimize the economic, education and globalization issues that I saw affecting me and my neighbors.

David · 2 years ago

I must vote for the man who is closest to my MORAL CONVICTIONS. Even if that means voting for a hypocrite.

That said... it will not be Obama.

Art · 2 years ago

I think it will end up being a Clinton/Obama ticket, against Republican whomever.

Adam · 2 years ago

www.ronpaul2008.com

i like this guy.

Katie P · 2 years ago

Thanks Tex :)

I'll check them out.

ScW · 2 years ago

Hate to add to the fray... but I will. My concept for politics is having a reason for every position... at least to the greatest extent possible. So I don't view this as a "I thought you guys were trying to be different than the last generation of Christians" thing. So lets put down the Donald Miller books and compare the issues with the Bible. Sure there will be disagreements about local versus federal control and some of the issues... but for certain issues, there is a very clear answer in the Bible.

abortion - I think we all know how God feels here. There are too many verses to argue that God doesn't care. That's crazy. To those who think that no progress in this area has been made, you only need to look at recent Supreme Court decisions. The POTUS nominates the justices... now we have slim (as in shaky) conservative court for the first time in decades. And that can really help states who want to put limits on abortion. If done correctly, the court is going to support that. Partial birth abortion... same deal. So to say that the POTUS has no real impact on the issue is completely false. He (or She) affects the Supreme Court and for generations our society then feels the affects.

gay rights - as believers, we can't stand in judgement of non-believers. But by the same token, God has clearly established 3 institutions... marriage, the church and the government. It's pretty darn clear from scripture that God doesn't approve of same-sex sexual relationships. So why would we want to elect officials who would work towards clearly changing the definition of what God established.

taxes and more government - now you'll be thinking I'm crazy here... but I believe that taxes should be paid, but I also believe that our tax system is unethical. Any politician or person who supports class warfare is sinning. How? Jealousy -- just go back a few months... watch Andy's "it came from within" series. The logical conclusion to be reached is that when we want to stick the tax burden to the guy who makes more than us, it's selfishness and it's jealousy. The government's job is not to redistribute wealth (and eventually make everyone poor as communism does)... it's goal should be a framework in which people can attempt to succeed. If people are cheating or stealing etc... whack... that's what the government is for... but not to punish people for working hard and succeeding. Furthermore, when we increasingly rely and promote the idea of government providing services that the church should be providing, we (the church) are in the wrong. The government should not be doing tasks given to the church.

I could go on to other issues (and should on my blog I guess)... and I could use verses to clearly back these up... but when I look at these, I don't see how I could support Obama or Hillary or Guliani or many others. And certainly, when it comes down to it, there is no "perfect" candidate. I feel like after prayer and study, it comes down to supporting the best of the viable candidates. But viable is what's least clear at this time.

So I'm still undecided. Perhaps Thompson or Huckabee...

Chris Thomas · 2 years ago

That was freaking strong ScW. Very well said.

Paul J. · 2 years ago

Excellent discussion.
Since the age of 18, I've tried to vote my heart and my conscience. Through the years, and through different times of maturity (or lack of it), intelligence (or lack of it), and so on, that means I've voted Democrat, Republican, and Independent.
Where am I now? A bit discouraged, a bit cynical...because I wonder if we will ever see a politician from either side of the aisle that is willing to say what he/she means and do what is right for the country, regardless of special interests and social pressures.
And one other thing...although I am sincerely pro-life, I don't believe it's a hill to die on for a presidential candidate. Because, bottom line, a president can't do anything about abortion. What a president thinks about what makes a good Supreme Court justice...THAT can make a difference.
Who am I voting for? I'm a good few months away from knowing...

Adam S · 2 years ago

ScW - I have an issues with your biblical exposition. Your issue with government and taxes doesn't seem to stand up to the idea of Jubilee. That was government redistribution based around class and wealth. The requirement for people to not fully harvest their whole field was a type of government redistribution. There are other similar examples. You may argue that it was based on personal responsibility, but it was a theocracy so the rules were required to enforced by either the temple priests or the government. So if you want to use those rules (and there are clearly some that don't think we can) then I think that you are wrong about that point.

lorijo · 2 years ago

thinking out loud more over here...
http://bamboosong.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/raga...
interesting discussion here.

Naz · 2 years ago

Stephen Colbert
Truthiness and justice for all.

I wonder if they will be playing the comedian card?

Molly Moore · 2 years ago

This is directed toward a previous comment, but don't take it as venomous... just adding to the discussion.

ScW - Since you're sure as to how God feels about certain issues, what does he feel about divorce? Should there be laws banning remarriage? There are many more references in the Bible to divorce than to homosexuality, and Jesus talked about it a few times himself... and he never mentioned the other.

You said:
"gay rights - as believers, we can’t stand in judgement of non-believers"

Could you please clear something up for me... are you implying that if someone is gay, then they are a non-believer?


Again, I suggest that you all read Gregory Boyd's book - The Myth of a Christian Nation.

stephen · 2 years ago

i think ron paul is very interesting. seems to have an unwavering track record when it comes to voting his convictions. i just don't know if he can win, so i wonder what real affect voting for him will have on the election.

Vince · 2 years ago

Ron Paul

It's a rEVOLution!

Tim · 2 years ago

Obama for sure. Honestly anyone who says I will only vote for a republican must have been sleeping for the past 8 years. And if I may say, it doesn't seem like our War on Terror is "Pro Life"... but I digress..

Reason #1 that I like Obama. He has a track record of working with both sides of government. I am sick of the red versus blue crap. I understand that people have different ideals but we need to work together and work to build a better country and not tear down each-others view of what a better country looks like.

Tim · 2 years ago

Sooo I just read ScW. I love that argument for Gay Rights. Molly Moore hit the nail on the head. I have never had anyone be able to answer this question who had beliefs like ScW, and would love to hear anyone's answer who shares these same beliefs.

If you feel like ScW does above that "God doesn’t approve of same-sex sexual relationships. So why would we want to elect officials who would work towards clearly changing the definition of what God established."

Where does that stop? Should worshiping other god's be illegal? God clearly established that we shouldn't worship any other god. Should we remove the freedom of religion from our government? Should we make adultery illegal? What about gluttony? How about make all sin punishable by law? Where do we draw the line, and who of you think that you know which sins are worse than others?

M@ · 2 years ago

i've been leaning toward obama for a while simply because i believe him when he speaks. i don't always agree with him, but i don't think i have to. i just want a leader who i feel is being honest with me

Molly Moore · 2 years ago

Thank you Tim! Perfect!

Dan · 2 years ago

Where does that stop? Should worshiping other god’s be illegal? God clearly established that we shouldn’t worship any other god. Should we remove the freedom of religion from our government? Should we make adultery illegal? What about gluttony? How about make all sin punishable by law? Where do we draw the line, and who of you think that you know which sins are worse than others?

Dude, in ScW's defense, these are mostly straw man arguments you're fronting. None of them are completely analogous to the issue of altering existing marriage laws.

Also, it's entirely possible to believe that homosexuals should be afforded equal protection under the law (not to mention love and compassion) and to support initiatives that would, say, ensure property and inheritance rights or prevent a homosexual from being denied access to his or her hospitalized partner on the basis that the couple isn't family, but also be against changing the institution of marriage and believe that homosexual behavior is sin. It's not the simple all-or-nothing proposition presented by our two glorious political parties and their carefully scripted and image-managed powerbrokers.

Personally, I think at a certain point you have to decide which is more important: a political issue or people. I agree with ScW that scripture is pretty clear about homosexual (as well as many other kinds of sexual) behavior, but I'd rather try to bridge the gap between (many) gay people and Christians than win a political fight that means very little in the grand scheme of things.

And can you be gay and Christian? Absolutely. And it's up to those individuals to deal (with the help of the Holy Spirit and other believers) with any conflict between scripture and their sexual desires -- just as it's up to us all to do the same. So, yeah, to answer your earlier question: No sins are worse than others in God's eyes. And we do need to keep that in mind when dealing with other people.

justin aka j rocka · 2 years ago

If I was a bumper sticker kind of guy, it would say Obama on the back of my 2003 Ford Focus.

He is the freshest to me. He is the complete opposite of the current administration. Dumb white Republican.

Yeah he may be pro-choice, but does that still limit God? Alot of right wing Christians sure love to stand on that soapbox with one leg on the war box.

So an abortion may be legal, but that dose not mean you have to get one. Maybe Christians can educate and love people for a change. I can buy a pack of cigs right now if I want, but that dose not mean I will. People can make choices, and maybe us as Christians can be more effective in our ministry and guide those choices. Not with signs and protesting. With actions of love. Love pregnant single mothers. Love people that have made mistakes. (Love people that read Harry Potter books) Don't treat them as outsiders. We almost push them into the clinics with our judgmental attitudes.

I am in no way for abortion. I am for Christians acting like Jesus. I don't think we get it anymore. Let go of the power. the positions. the money. the status. the finger pointing.

legislation can't change the world. The love of Christ can.

peace.

Daren Painter · 2 years ago

Well, ScW......

As the gay, un-churched BELIEVER who originally posed the question (because as an outsider I am extremely fascinated by the massive changes I see taking place in the way people "do church") about whether the posters on this subject were approaching God differently than the older cohort of Christians, I have to tell you that I will not be putting down the Donald Miller books. While your statement about believers not standing in judgement of non-believers (which equals gay according to your math) almost creates a place for me at the table, that place is very clearly WAY down at the other end, nowhere near you or your children and has a sign above that section of the table where COLORED got marked out a few decades ago and GAY and PRO-CHOICE were magic-markered on top.

So, you see, the Donald Miller books and a large host of other contemporary Christian authors as well as the Bible are food for me. We all have to get fed. I see the nice Andy Stanley-sized portions being served up over on your end of the table and it is tempting to be jealous. Down at my end, it is true that we sorta have to improvise the feast and take the bits and pieces we can pull together on our plate. I count myself blessed, however, that through grace I am able to look into the face of the mother of three (who takes her clothes off on a stage in order to feed her children) sitting next to me at this end and see the face of Jesus.

You say that we all know where God stands on abortion. I must ask if all those verses that are explicit about the very 20th century situation are in the same books and chapters as the ones that are so explicit about the evils of stem-cell research? I realize that you don't consider me part of the We who know where God stands but I, for one, really don't know with such unwavering certainty as yours. Makes me wonder.....if Jesus showed up for the above mentioned feast, might he likely take his seat way down here next to the 16-year old girl contemplating suicide because she is eaten up with self-loathing despite the fact that her alcoholic stepfather raped her and put her in this horrible place? And what is it he would say to the girl? I don't know the answer but I do strongly believe that when we put absolutes on what we know, we enter dangerous territory....dare I say SIN territory.

Please know that it is not my intention to put any venom out there. Though I may not be welcome at your version of The Table, the lovely freedom of the blogosphere does allow me a place in this forum however. Thanks for listening to to my views.

Dan · 2 years ago

...I do strongly believe that when we put absolutes on what we know, we enter dangerous territory...

Respectfully and for the sake of clarity, what can we know and how?

Carole Turner · 2 years ago

I want to see the end of Roe Vs Wade. We are closer, why? Because of Judges on the Supreme Court put there by Republican Presidents. George Bush raised the Adotion tax credit from $6000.00 to $10,000.00. That has helped many couples who want to adopt.

Is this the only issue? No, but I have to consider who I vote for as President in that light also, would he nominate a Supreme Court Judge that would fight for the unborn? BUT I also believe that Christians are responsible for fighting abortion way more then the government is. We are to provide homes, medical care, financial help for adoptions etc, so that we can show Jesus love for both mother and baby.

Again, I don't think this is the only issue but I am also not ashamed to say it is a huge issue for me even still. I know it's not "Christian-Hip" now to STILL be talking about the Abortion issue but just because people are tired of hearing about it doesn't mean it's not important.

SO all that to say, I doubt I could vote for Obamah- maybe, but more then likely if it was him and Guliani I'd vote for Guliani.

ScW · 2 years ago

Okay... I am amazed now at how quickly people can run in different directions with comments. @Dan... thanks for backing me up... that's exactly what I was suggesting... that the institution of marriage be protected... And no... I am not saying gay = non-believers. I was actually prefacing my defense of marriage by actually indicating that as believers we can't hold non-believers to the same standards. But at the same time, we should still protect the institution of marriage because it's an institution established by God.

There seems to be a theme going here where some folks feel like the church or believers shouldn't talk about sin... In our rush to modernize are we turning our backs on truth? We don't need to sugar coat the truth or try to put a stamp of tacit approval on sin in order to bring people to Christ. But on the other hand, absolutely, yes... we must show the love of Christ to all people. And folks aren't going to see that love if we insist that they vote republican (or democrat) before we can hang with them or show them love (the one excellent point I got from Don Miller).

So I just encourage you, can you make a Biblical argument for the person you'll be voting for? Can you say that you are helping the government fulfill its God-ordained role? If the government envisioned by your candidate was in power, would people be encouraged to share the love of Christ and encouraged to live up to their true potential? Would the church still be empowered to fulfill its God-given role? Or would the government be taking some of the church's role? Would the government actually work against the church and actively promote an alternate belief system or attempt to silence believers or the church? Would that government promote sin?

Los · 2 years ago

I'm just blown away that it has gone 58 comments and stayed civilized.
Thanks for arguing for the sake of change. Keep posting. My thoughts in a few hours...
Los

Daren Painter · 2 years ago

I believe that we can know that we are trying to live like Christ. I think we should be careful about what specific dogma we know with absolute certainty. Your words of earlier sum up my take on it:

"at a certain point you have to decide which is more important: a political issue or people.....No sins are worse than others in God’s eyes. And we do need to keep that in mind when dealing with other people."

To live like Christ, versus being a Christian, means attempting (IMHO)with all your heart to operate from a place of love rather than judgement.

Those of the Jewish faith refrain from eating pork because it is an unclean animal. As a life-long lover of bacon, my personal relationship with God doesn't come with such a restriction but I do not know absolutely that they are wrong for their practice. One could carry along in this same vein with many other examples, both larger and smaller in context, but hopefully my example is not considered elementary.

I guess my point with it was that if judgement were put down, the chairs at the table could be pushed closer together which is what I believe Christ was about. When 'Love Thy Neighbor' becomes a more important mantra to Christians than 'Hate the sinner Not the Sin' we'll all move a big step closer to really being able to call ourselves followers of Christ, rather than just Christians.

Daren Painter · 2 years ago

Ooops....I meant 'Hate the Sin Not the Sinner'

Dan · 2 years ago

I believe that we can know that we are trying to live like Christ.

I agree, but how can we know what it means to live like Christ?

S. Pihlaja · 2 years ago

On gay marriage, I think the word hanging people up is marriage and that's why I think Obama's got the right idea. I don't think anyone wants to see a gay couple denied the ability to visit each other in the hospital as family. I don't think anyone wants the partner of someone who has died be denied the rights to that person's estate because the dead partner's parents disapproved of their lifestyle. So you can take a moral stand on marriage in your church, that's fine, but imposing that standard (which is based purely on a religious belief) on others is very similar to Islamic states.

On abortion. First, abortion is a human rights problem, not a religious one. But as long as the most visible opponents to abortion are all religious leaders, people like me have a hard time arguing the point as human rights one. Stop having prayer vigils and get some atheists who can argue the legitimate point that killing a human baby is killing a human. Then maybe there can be some traction in the social fight. Until then, the pro-choice crowd can continue to argue (fairly) that because the pro-lifers are all Christians, they are just trying to impose Christianity on the rest of us.

But I would also say now we have a pro-life President who has done nothing (and can't do anything) for the pro-life movement. As long as the nation is split on the issue, new supreme court justices are not going to solve the problem. It will have to be changed in the law by the congress and the President. And that won't to happen until public opinion is turned (see above).

We separate church and state for a reason: so religions we don't like don't rule over us. That's how our country was founded. So I think everyone should vote for what they believe, just make sure you are voting for ALL of what you believe and that what you believe doesn't infringe on the rights of others who believe differently than you.

Stephanie · 2 years ago

I'm a one issue voter at this point. I cannot with a good conscience vote for someone who thinks that it is okay and right for babies to be murdered. And yes, I think it is possible for roe v. wade to be overturned in my lifetime. WE ARE ONE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE AWAY FROM IT BEING OVERTURNED and the next president will likely choose at least the next 2 Justices. So, whoever is presidnet is VERY important in the defense of the unborn.

I'm for Mike Huckabee. A decent and down to earth pro-life candidate. Justin Taylor, a young conservative, evangelical blogger has a good endorsement of Huckabee here: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2007/10/our-cons....

I agree we should not put our hope in the president, but in God. But God gave us minds, so lets put them to work to strategize on this very important issue.

Jackie @ Family Daze · 2 years ago

Huckabee. Definitely.

ScW · 2 years ago

@S. Pihlaja... our president has done nothing for the pro-life movement? Huh? So you're saying the justices that were appointed (Alito and Roberts) are not going to be pro-life at all? April 18th of this year... "The 5-4 ruling said the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act that Congress passed and President Bush signed into law in 2003 does not violate a woman's constitutional right to an abortion." While it doesn't overturn R v W... it certainly strikes a blow. We really are 1 justice away from having a true pro-life majority on the court. That's a switch from 2000 when the court heard a similar case and voted the other way. Obviously, this doesn't solve the ultimate problem, but it certainly allows states and the federal government to put limits on it. It is progress.

And to talk about a completely different issue... eminent domain -- notice that we were 1 conservative justice away from having the Kelo decision go the other way. This is significant stuff. Our rights to openly express our views, our rights to celebrate the Christian heritage of our country, and many other things have been severely affected in the last 60 years based on supreme court decisions.

We've been given a great gift to be born in this country and I'm not talking just about the freedom and wealth that we have compared with many other parts of the world... but I am also talking about the ability to vote and campaign and possibly run for office (if you're so directed). Just as in the Bible, Paul skillfully used his Roman citizenship at times to further the cause of Christ, I don't believe we're being a good steward of what we've been given if we throw it away.

Chris Green · 2 years ago

I live in the South, therefore, we cannot play nice in politics. JK JK. I like Obama as a person, especially on his appearance on Leno...very charming man. But we don't live in a pre-2001 world anymore...our country needs a mean, butt-kicking leader...not a peace-at-all-costs, watching the polls for opinions, president.

So...I have to believe a Republican whose name is not Ron Paul is probably best for America. Socialized medicine, bad idea. You think the War on Terror is expensive? Just wait for "Hillary-Care."

Huckabee is great, but second-tier candidates cannot win. Is Thompson my choice...?

Dan · 2 years ago

On abortion. First, abortion is a human rights problem, not a religious one. But as long as the most visible opponents to abortion are all religious leaders, people like me have a hard time arguing the point as human rights one. Stop having prayer vigils and get some atheists who can argue the legitimate point that killing a human baby is killing a human. Then maybe there can be some traction in the social fight. Until then, the pro-choice crowd can continue to argue (fairly) that because the pro-lifers are all Christians, they are just trying to impose Christianity on the rest of us.

Good point (other than the fact that I don't quite understand why atheists would have more authority on the matter than anyone else, or why a human rights issue can't have a religious component or vice-versa). In the end, I suspect science and not appeals to morality, religion, or courts will decide the issue. In the (relatively) near future medical technology will have given us a much clearer understanding (and much more vivid pictures) of fetal development. We'll wonder how we as a society ever tolerated abortion on demand. It will be as morally repugnant to us then as, say, slavery is to us now.

Or we'll come to understand how early fetus' look like human beings, how rapidly their brains develop, and how early in their develop they are capable of responding to sensory information (like pain), but we won't care. In which case, we'll have utterly lost our soul as a culture. That's a happy morning thought, huh?

Lewis · 2 years ago

By the way, and I'm sure you all know this, "Love the sinner, hate sin" isn't found anywhere in the Bible, and, we can get into a whole theological exegesis about it, in many cases is actually anti-Biblical (probably not the right post to do it, necessarily).

But, "Love thy neighbor" is most assuredly in the Bible and that is *exactly* what Jesus tells us to do, right after we start by loving God. It is the love of God that *allows* us to love our neighbor.

In that sense, j rocka's comments are right on as are Darren's. Personally, I'm not for gay marriage or for single mothers. But, the reality is that both groups (or advocates for) people are loved by God, and therefore, as I model Christ, loved by me.

You can't legislate someone to act like Christ. That only comes when you have the love of Christ within you. Then you can go out and change the world by showing others that love. Sometimes, yes, that does mean disciplining and discipling them. Sometimes, it means wrapping your arms around another person. Everyone has different needs.

All that said, it's not the government's place to wrap their arms around anyone nor is it their job to tell me to wrap my arms around someone. Their job is to make sure that me, my family, and the country is safe. That's the Church. Or at least it should be (again, the failures of the Church - and there are so, so many - are a whole 'nother conversation that we can have which would not be topic relevant).

Small government, big ideas. That's what I'm looking for in the candidate for whom I'll cast my ballot. I love this convo.

Debbie · 2 years ago

For those of you who are still not sure which canidate you would vote for...
Here is a quiz you can take.
http://www.wqad.com/Global /link.asp?L=259460
You answer several questions and how strongly you feel about each. It then lists the candidates and which issues they agree and disagree with you.

Shannon Lewis · 2 years ago

Formerly a registered democrat, but I'm jumping ship:
I'm voting Ron Paul.
Seriously.

S. Pihlaja · 2 years ago

Okay, for the abortion is the only issue that matters folks, it seems you think the best was to eradicate abortion is to have a supreme court ruling that will go in your favor. There are a couple of problems with that idea. First, supreme court justices aren't robots. We've had, what, 23 or 24 years of Republican presidents since R v. W and abortion is still legal. Second, imagine even if you were able to get a clear case before the court that would clearly overturn R v. W. With half of America opposing it, there would serious problems. You'd have doctors performing illegal abortions, going to jail. You'd have women all over TV talking about how they have no options. It would be very difficult to enforce and unless there was some traction socially, it would be overturned again. Partial birth abortion will likely stand because people in our society find it offensive. The same could not be said of first trimester abortions.

The goal, I think, should be reducing abortions, not making some political/ moral statement. For me, this means that if distributing birth control in high schools reduces abortions, fine: whatever it takes. Right now, the argument is at a stalemate because of religion. Christian leaders define opposition to abortion with Christian principals. This makes the argument very easy to ignore if you're not a Christian. That's why I think an atheist or two could help re-frame the issue.

The same goes for these 'war on terror' voters. You aren't necessarily advocating keeping the country safe, but keeping the country safe in one way; that is, being willing to invade another country (as long as it's not Saudi) or kick ass or however you want to frame it. But what if diplomacy and trade can make us safer (as it did in the Cold War)? This is thrown out as weak. I don't understand why willingness to bomb Iran is a litmus test for anything.

ScW · 2 years ago

@S. Pihlaja -- Well... I hesitate to point out that we would have had a conservative majority had judge Bork not been Bork'd. Instead we got Souter and Kennedy who have turned out to be plain old libs... all along, we've been close. And finally we've gained some ground. Congress passed the partial birth abortion ban under Clinton and he veto'd it. Again, the POTUS has an affect on the issue. And nope, we'll never eliminate abortion, but we need to make sure we're not electing a government that helps to pay for it... or government that protects the idea of abortion so much that puts the lives of women at greater risk because they are unwilling to put further restrictions on how/when/where it's performed. States need to be able to pass stricter regulations on how and when they can be performed without having their laws struck down at the federal level.

As Carlos can testify here, if the state of California can require a man to go to a class before being allowed to have a Vasectomy, then surely we can put some better requirements around abortions. The idea first and foremost is to not have a government that subsidizes or encourages sin (specifically murder in this case).

On the war, I would argue, whether it's right or wrong that we're in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would be morally wrong to just pack up and leave immediately. So when Obama gets up on stage and promises 16 months to home, it basically makes the statement that "hey, we've lost and we're going home." That's the dumbest message I can imagine sending to the terrorists who have gone into Iraq and who are coming into Afghanistan from placing like Pakistan. In Iraq, especially, the military leaders and not lying when they say that they are making significant progress. Look at the reports of people on the ground (check out Michael Yon's excellent site for example -- he's been embedded in Iraq for years now) where folks who are really there are seeing significant progress... which is also why there are some slight reductions already in troop presence. The democrats' plan is nothing short of attempting to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory... "hurry up and get out of here before we actually win".

Certainly, there will never be some Utopian democracy there, but we can certainly leave things in such a state that the Iraqi's won't get totally wiped off the map when we leave. And that's been Huckabee's point (to just pick someone specifically), we must see it through to a decent conclusion. Plus, leaving it in chaos could significantly aid Iran or Syria in gaining influence in the region and weakening our overall national security.

Kristiapplesauce · 2 years ago

My stomach hurts.

Les · 2 years ago

The reason Obama is so attractive is his skill with rhetoric. He talks a great game. But he is an empty suit. He's too soon. He needs to work in the political arena longer before throwing in for the Presidency. Previous posts notwithstanding, he has no real "track record."

And you can't say "Ron Paul" and then follow that with the word, "seriously." It sounds too much like a Saturday Night Live shtick. Seriously.

geektom · 2 years ago

Jesus would not care any more WHO was President than he did who was Caesar. The current political leader here in my home country has nothing to do with my Christian faith-- just like my faith wouldn't change if I was living in Saudi Arabia.

loswhit · 2 years ago

Dang Tom. Please dont be a stranger. You pop in for a second and spit wisdom that i look around the blog world for weeks to find.
Well put.
Los

bryonm · 2 years ago

i rarely read the oprah best sellers

but i might vote for dr. phil if he ran

xBrownsXBridgex · 2 years ago

Los, I am a late adopter. But after reading all of the comments, I felt it necessary to post a response.

For alot of my life, I thought that politics religion were like Christ the church. As I matured, I realized that's as far from the truth as Bill Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." (Ok, that was a low blow. Literally. Ok, ok. Sorry. I couldn't help it.)

I agree with many of the comments above; but geektom's are the most important. Fact of the matter is, we've forgotten who Jesus is. He's Jesus. He's the freakin' Savior of the world, guys. You can put Hillary, Obama, Giuliani or Bush 43 again and things are going to happen as God intended them too. As Christians, we lose sight of the fact that when God was chilling out in the middle of the universe and decided to create the heavans and the earth, that he also went ahead and designed our lives. How does that verse go? Ah yes. I knew you before you were in the womb. My point being, back when Moses was running the Jews around the desert, God already knew who was going to be appointed president. And in the sentiments of geektom, Jesus is going to accomplish the same will regardless of who is living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Without getting all theological on you cats, there's a concept known as predestination. You either believe it, or you don't. It's a concept that they talk about in seminary and few pastors have dared talk about it. Andy's dad, Charles, is one of the few that touched on this topic a ways back. If you have a chance, Google it. Wiki it. Read up on it. It's something that will change the way you look at the Gospel, Jesus, The Cross and what we do on a daily basis.

Los, while I don't agree with your choice on Obama (in my humble opinion he's inexperienced), I love your call to action. Personally, I'm with Rudy. Have been since he came out. I like his leadership, but he too has his skeletons.

Too many times, Christians are afraid to talk openly about politics because there's this notion that all Christians are Republicans or Conservatives. We live in a time where that's not the case. Luckily, we live in a country that supports diversity; that supports a value system where we can worship the god/God of our choice; we can vote for the candidate that we believe is the best choice; and most of all, we can have open dialogue and communication like this.

****

I currently attend Browns Bridge. I have a gay couple that goes with me and my wife every Sunday. And there have been times where Sunday morning came too quick and I stayed in bed. They got up and went without us. We need to stop judging and take on the heart of Christ.

Do I support gay marriage? No. Do I think homosexuals should be allowed to lead a small group or serve as an elder? No. And I say that with a knot in my throat because I am just as big of a sinner as the next guy. BUT gays should be welcomed with open arms; be invited to participate in worship, in small groups, etc. I'm just not sure that as a church we are ready to say that gays are able to lead a body of believers. If you ask anyone on the NP Ministry staff (Browns Bridge, North Point, Buckhead, Andy, Louie, Jeff, etc.), no one will touch that topic because it is so difficult for us to overcome.

But Daren is right: Christ would be hanging out with the folks that don't have their stuff together. And if we were honest with ourselves, we'd all be at the same end of the table. Everyone sins. Everyone was born a sinner. We're all the same. We're all nothing without Christ. We're all something with Christ.

Thanks again Los for your honesty.

What? · 2 years ago

Does Andy know anything that what you represent on here may mislead people about him?

What? · 2 years ago

Do you not realize that people from Buckhead Church are getting upset about your site? You are out of line with the Obama thing and the way you try to make Church seem hip instead of Holy. It will not be good when Andy is told about all of this. You are dumbing down God and all that North Point has tried to stand for. I mean to tell you people at the top are not going to be happy.

What? · 2 years ago

Are you serious?

If Andy reads this - Hi Andy we have met you know me. What I am concerned about is that you read this Andy and it is all okay with you. Would you allow your three kids to read what this guy has to say? His approach to God and the way he dumbs down North Point and represents Buckhead Church. Makes it seem more like a club than a place of worship - not good.

This has really distressed some people who know Andy well and some who have known him since he was a young boy.

You cannot be for Obama and be a Christian. Do you even know anything about Barack's faith? His church? Very scary and contrary to North Point. You need to know where Obama's faith is about before you think he is the one.

This is all a shame and I am dissapointed in Andy.

What? · 2 years ago

Know what they believe! Know that they believe you loose your salvation and are not born with sin. This is Barack Hussein Obama. Know him!

www.tucc.org

Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.

The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

JC · 2 years ago

Pipe it down fellows.

Carlos, way to initiate some thoughts!

“What” I don’t agree with your statement “you cant be a Christian and be for Obama.

I work at NP. I am not a republican and I am not a Democrat.

I am just a person. A Christian (follower of Christ) Ahh.. I was born and raised in South America... What does that has to do with anything? Nothing. Other than, being born and raised in another country does give me a different perspective in politics than most Americans.

You see, in my world it is not about being Republican and/or Democrat. Just people. And you use your liberty to choose the leader you want. That is why I respect Carlos. And disagree with the "What"

A Professor told me this in Seminary a few years ago. “Hold your position/conviction, leave room for the rest”

For example, in America many Christians support the war. And some even think God chose America to free other people and so forth... I don’t agree with that. That does not even sound Christian to me. However, I have great friends who support the war and all that stuff. I have a different position, but I leave room for other people. Why, because I don’t know it all. And someone may prove me wrong. So I try to walk humbly.

Here is my view on that.
If you see the history of the church, when the followers of Jesus were oppressed and persecuted, they fled to the next town. (And led more people to Jesus there:) but they never fought against any regime. It was simple. They used their civil liberties and when oppressed, they fled. And by the way, they were truly oppressed.

In America, I have seen a part of Christianity I never experienced before. People using Christianity to defend a political position. Can’t agree with that. That’s what the Catholic church did and we know how that went... I don’t think they have apologized yet, have they?

So, I say hold your conviction and leave room for the rest. Use your liberties to choose who you think is best and leave room for the rest.

The dialogue is healthy

That’s my 2 cents.

JC

loswhit · 2 years ago

JC -Well put.
What?! - um, well, thanks for your opinions? I think.
Browns Bridge - Thanks for showing how to respectfully disagree.

CG · 2 years ago

What?
That kinda sounded threatening...? You might not be aware of this, but Andy hired Carlos...BECAUSE HE IS CARLOS. As a staff member, I can tell you that being real is valued way above office politics.

Politically speaking, although I am a staunch conservative, I can tell you that it actually is possible to be an Obama follower and a Christian. In fact, in many ways, Democratic social policies are much more Christ-like than Republican policies...we mostly disagree on whose responsibility it is to solve those problems...the government or the free market?

If your comments were intended to scare Carlos into being quiet...shame on you. Seriously, shame on you. For dramatic effect... ... ...shame on you.

What? · 2 years ago

You are now in America and we have a political system that is called a democracy. Where I disagree as to where this forum has been lost - it is in the fact that the operator of this forum got political and has linked songs played at Buckhead on his personal site. Where he is going wrong is using a public forum to link it to a Church where there is much disagreement going on now about his political views. There is a time and place for everything.

God made man, God also made Kings and put the President in the Whitehouse. The God I serve is in control and wars have been going on since Cain and Able - brother against brother.

What you don't use is your position at a church to impress others to think about a particular Candidate. That is not what Andy is all about. I happen to know that this is a fact. I also happen to know that many are disturbed over the fact that this website aligns itself with North Point/Browns Bridge and Buckhead Church. Something I know Andy would be in total disagreement with.

When leading followers to Christ the focus should be on Jesus - not on the messenger or his talent to be a worship leader. The light is on Los's way of looking at things and using his time of worship at Buckhead become the focal point of making him the star - therefore spotlighting Barack. This is misleading and I guarantee that Andy would not agree with this - I know he would not.

When we are deep rooted in a real relationship with the Living God - Christ Jesus you know the truth from the fluff. Your relationship with HIM does steer your political beliefs. It is woven together in your heart and soul. You can leave the dema-gog-gery for the weak minded to believe. All of this is to fluff up the operator of the site - not God. There have been war since God created the world and man fell in the Garden of Eden. We are to free the oppressed of Iraq so that 20 years from now a grateful generation of children will know that America set them free! Obama did not want this war because he chooses to be free of the scrutiny of being a Commander in Chief.

Billy Graham is praying for Wh · 2 years ago

I'm a democrat...
Read This

Signed,
Billy Graham

What? · 2 years ago

You have no idea what Billy Graham is praying for...please - what an insult that you assume to get into the mind of Billy Graham at this moment.

All I am trying to say that if you are a worship leader at Buckhead Church and you own a private website and you try to combine what you do at the church and mix it all in with your world view there is contrast here. The two do not mix very well. It gives the impression that North Point/ Buckhead / Brownsbridge are some political machine with people in a leadership position talking about things that do not mix well together. What doe Barack have to do with playing The Drummer Boy in a cool way? NOTHING!

Read Barack's church's mission statement and compare them with what Andy has to say. It is a contrast and I just happen to know that to be a fact. This is not a threat - a fact. Huge difference. I will know what Andy feels about this site and we will see if this is against his belief.

Once again you are trying to dumb down God and the Birth of Christ by making it about what you beleive. It cannot be that way. To those who much are given - much is expected. To lead the lost in the wrong direction is dangerous.

Mark · 2 years ago

mr. or mrs anonymous what?!
You have been the exact thing that 82 people have tried to avoid on this site. Spewing venom.
Can you not see you are an embarassment to everything North Point stands for?
Your cowardliness is laughable.
This is a community of people who are not hiding anything.
1. you come in anonymous. Which is cowardly. Give us your first and last name.
2. you come in attacking.
3. you have spent way too long typing nonsense tonight instead of doing something useful with your time like praying for your unbelieving friends to accept Jesus.
Stop spewing and go do something useful with your fingers.
Please leave.
Mark

loswhit · 2 years ago

So I am shutting the comments down for this post. "What?!" has done exactly what we were trying to avoid.
Thank you everyone who discussed responsibly and honorably.
I just want to protect the integrity of the majority of the commentors on this post.
We can not convince people one way or another on blog. That is for sure.
You guys ROCK!!!
Los