Ragamuffin Soul - Latest Comments in Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

bryonm — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:26:03 -0000

Los,
Thanks for pointing out this article. I worked in a portable church for over a decade. Innovation is what it took just to pull things off week in and week out.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:14:45 -0000

Innovation in the church?

Easy.

"How many people have been saved and baptized?"

One gauge. One stat.

Period.

Too bad that churches are so embarrassed by this number that innovation is measured by the fluffy stuff that involve WAY too many meetings and WAY to little time reaching any further than the parking lot.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Erik — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:04:12 -0000

great question... the term "innovative churches" is over cooked. innovative is the church finding the way to reach people in a way that no one has thought of or done yet. the place (not just a church) that originates an unconventional way of reaching people...that most wouldn't even dare considering. when it's voted on and at the top of a list...when it's at a conference. it's not innovative anymore. still chewing on this one...

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Brad Metzger — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:52:31 -0000

The little "cup buddy" cardboard coffee cup holder thingie. When Sandals got those, I knew innovation was afoot.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

: ) — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:37:47 -0000

Because my church (predominantly white, nondenominational) is so different from my previous churches (predominantly black, Full Gospel Baptist), it all seems innovative to me. : )

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Ed from AUS — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:08:42 -0000

To me, Innovation is any church that puts aside its own agendas in order to reach the community for Christ. We live in a selfish world and unfortunately our churches are just as guilty of being selfish. We try so hard to protect "what's ours" our traditions, our preferences, the way WE want things that we forget that in order to reach the lost we must meet THEIR needs, communicate in their terms and on their turf. Jesus said "Go into all the world..." not "make the world come to you..."

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Hope Mabry — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:37:34 -0000

I'm not so opinionated when it comes to innovative ideas for churches, but I love that our church plant here in Scotland hired a non Christian drummer for the worship team. He got saved like 6 months later. And he's a really good drummer too, because he was hired early on. (He's volunteers his time now).

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Gary — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:02:14 -0000

I think it's a church that is always evaluating and questioning their methods, and thinking of fresh ways to minister, instead of solely copying "successful" church's methods. Possibly, bad motives are leading to stale churches. The business model is way too dominant in churches, it seems.
Our church has been innovative, mainly because, we openly recognize that there is no formula to doing church. God designed us individually, so we're going to bring different things to the table with different results, and growing in in different ways.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

PatrickJohn — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:53:54 -0000

For me, I think of an innovative church as one that has a greater impact on the community. Finding new, fresh, and creative ways of engaging in the community OUTSIDE the walls of the church building is HUGE.
A lot of times I think that the ways are already there.. we just have to engage. (like getting groups of musicians to play in local bars) Not trying to brownnose,, but sweet idea. The ARTS are easy bridges.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Jimi — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:37:44 -0000

Anyone can be "innovative" if you've got a fat budget to work with. Innovation in ministry is spending the majority of the church budget actually reaching people for Christ and serving the poor instead of creating theme park churches.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

jason — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:34:32 -0000

innovative churches must make a timeless message stand out in an over stimulated culture. Jesus was known for loving the lost and the unlovable, and for being radically counter-cultural in light of the Kingdom of God. any church that is actually making an impact that looks like the impact of Christ is innovative.

that does not mean the coolest services, or the most numerical growth in the last fiscal year, even if that's what always seems to get noticed. let's reach for something really innovative and be a modern day Jesus to this world.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

rebeccamoon — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:32:53 -0000

i love visiting cool churches tagged "innovative." it's fun. their bands are awesome. most i've visited have kickin' lighting systems and immaculate sound. and it's all great because they're using it to lead people to Jesus.

however, for me, it's dangerous to get caught up in all of that. buckhead's doing an awesome job being buckhead. newspring's doing an awesome job being newspring. granger's doing an awesome job being granger. but i work at a church called the vine.....and our job is to do an awesome job being the vine. does that make any sense? we need to seek wisdom in the Word daily, pray for creativity, listen to the Spirit, and just be us. our own vibe; our own culture....our own community we're entrusted with to love people in the name of Jesus.

Los' first post is right-on. It's just like people who say they "want to be contemporary." what?!?! wanting to be something you're not is striving. people see right through that. if you're contemporary, you just ARE. your people are. your mindset is. the same goes with innovation.

and i think Pete hit the nail here:
http://withoutwax.tv/2008/0...

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Scott — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:45:59 -0000

As long as the church is based on weekly services (which most are); then the church is NOT innovative.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

PastorT — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:48:31 -0000

Personally, I could not possibly care less how innovative my church is, regardless of how you define it.
I don't go there looking for anything, but God. Guess what? I'm never disappointed cuz He's always there! My heart explodes with God's love every Sunday. Same here in Germany as it was in Indiana and those two churches couldn't possibly be more different. Tomlin to hymns...Night to day...Young to old....All the same to me though. :-)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Peter — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:30:09 -0000

In the context of the church, Innovation is the ability to keep moving/looking forward. Adapting while remaining consistent to the Gospel and not compromising ourselves in the process. I believe it takes a very diverse group of people to be truly innovative.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Mandy — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:23:40 -0000

Rich - Problem being that, even when the church is doing its ministry to reach real people...people accuse it of being cool just so they can make a list. That happens weekly when I tell people I attend GCC.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Adam Shields — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:23:08 -0000

There is nothing wrong with innovation, large churches, small churches, lists, etc., if those that are doing the innovation, leading the church, compiling the list are actually seeking God and doing what he says. I could care less if a church is innovative and cool if they are not actively seeking to do what God want THEM to do. My frustration comes at churches (denominations, magazines, etc.) that think that because God told Church A to do something that automatically God will bless Church B when they do the exact same thing. Innovation should be about following God not seeking after innovation.

(All this is not to bash innovation, I am all for it. It is to bash copying and not seeking after God.)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Rachel — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:22:44 -0000

I think that I agree with what most everyone is saying. I think that, nowadays, being innovative is actually being the hands and feet of Christ. Sounds so simple. I think that it's being a church that's less focused about legalities and more focused on loving people, being authentic and transparent, meeting people at every level which may mean not being in a church building or holding a service in the park at 11:18 am on a Wednesday. Technology is wonderful because it's an awesome tool that we can use to continue reaching people sometimes considered "unreachable" but I don't necessarily think that cool buildings and technology are always a good indicator of innovation... just my 2 cents :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Rich Kirkpatrick — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:18:46 -0000

Innovation...

A ministry that is not full of itself enough to create ministry that works in reaching real people, rather than just to be "cool" or a popular church you read about on lists.

A lot of us can be creative. But why are we innovating? Great discussion here.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

dwight watson — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:17:30 -0000

I think innovation is simply reading a context, determining what are the best ways to bear the Gospel into that context, and then figuring out a way to do it. For example, in reaching out to their relational network, the members of one of The River's communities encountered a HUGE number of working parents who didn't attend church because they didn't want to be separated from their kids on the weekend since that was the only "family time" they had. So, we changed the look of that gathering to a family-focused format where parents and children do church together. And it is working being our wildest dreams. We started this with two families about three months ago, and this past Sunday there were ten families!

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

alex mclean — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:16:15 -0000

OK. I'll bite. I love Ben's blog. I love your blog.

I'm not so sure that innovation is the point. I kind of like what you said, Los. Churches who are innovative are not concerned with being innovative.

Churches should be designed to meet a need. That's what Christ did. Feed the poor. Heal the sick. Better their community by educating people in areas of finance, relationships, responsibility, marriage, parenting. All in the context of the love and grace of God.

Innovation? Maybe it's simply being aware of the needs around you and having the balls to do something different and meet those needs. Then people come. Then people are healed. Then relationships are restored. Then the light of Jesus Christ begins to shine brightly in that community and then the "church people" begin to notice and write articles about them and how 'innovative' they are.

Our church is exploring this right now. Shame on us for losing that vision so easily.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

John Ireland — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:16:02 -0000

and...what los said :)

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

John Ireland — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:15:22 -0000

hmmm...i'd say any church that does the work to understand the community they hope to reach for Christ AND resources the creativity within their own body AND grows the Kingdom (and those in the Kingdom) is necessarily an innovative expression of the Church...it will happen.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

Jonathan — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:12:02 -0000

Good point Los.
I think being innovative is thinking outside the box. If that means building a coffeehouse instead of a church (NCC in DC) because you reach more people with coffee than with a church building or if it means the Buckhead Music Project, or whatever it means in your community. The point is as you said, the majority of people are not going to step inside your church building. So to me, being innovative is meeting people where they're at and loving them and building relationship with them. It also is going out into your community and making it a better place, even if your church doesn't get recognition. Of course, that isn't really all that innovative, since thats what the early Christians did.

Just my two cents.

Re: Ragamuffin Soul » Innovation Manipulation

chadking — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:09:39 -0000

innovative- using or doing something that's never been done before. Or being resourceful and using something in a way its never been used before.

There's nothing innovative about screens and guitars on stage and big buildings. Its cool but not innovative...maybe 20 yrs ago it was... (I am so guilty of this)