Ragamuffin Soul: Ragamuffin Soul » Donald Miller Shall Pray…Amen
CoryT
· 1 year ago
I think they've both got stones, because they both responded the way they did for different reasons. Like you said, Strang had to remember that he's representing a publication, Donald Miller simply represents Donald Miller.
Los, I do have a question. This isn't meant to start a flamewar, I'm genuinely curious. Would you mind explaining how you can be supportive of Democrats in light of things like abortion and the way that the party seems to have a strong affection for hate crime legislation in Canada? I don't mean that to sound nearly as antagonistic as it looks, it's just something that I was wanting to ask. If you'd rather e-mail your response to keep the blog from going political, I'd understand that.
Just as an aside, I've been poking around your blog for about a month now, and I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for letting God use you to touch the lives of lots of people over this wonderful thing we call the internet.
joshua
· 1 year ago
both
Jason Allen
· 1 year ago
Does anyone really have any doubt, though, who Strang favors? Not saying it is wrong, just that it seems very clear what direction they lean. So what's the big deal with him praying at the event?
adam
· 1 year ago
bah
strang i guess.
Los
· 1 year ago
CoryT // Yea. That is a over coffee conversation. My fingers can't type that fast.
Adam S
· 1 year ago
I understand why someone would not pray because it is not about the prayer but the program. On the other, you are being asked to pray and I can't think of any biblical admonition to not pray with or for someone. I may be wrong and I am open to correction, but how can we complain that Democrats are "godless" but then refuse to pray with them.
Los
· 1 year ago
Adam S is preachin' ya'll. Los
CoryT
· 1 year ago
Los // Maybe I'll have to make my way up to Buckhead soon and we could chat. Coffee on me.
CoryT
· 1 year ago
Oh, and well said Adam S
Carole Turner
· 1 year ago
I think Miller was right and Strang. I want to know where I can find Miller's prayer on the web, anyone know?
Tommy Parke
· 1 year ago
Strang. He could have easily accepted the invitation, said the prayer, and then gave whatever excuse he wanted to in order to justify it. Yet he knew that he represented something bigger than himself and so he took his liberty to pray at a polarizing event (although should it really be that polarizing?) and yielded it to his family, staff and his audience at Relevant.
Although Miller accepted the invitation, I don't think less of him. He had to pray before he was asked to pray to be given the opportunity. He's not a heathen for doing it. God transcends political boundaries.
david
· 1 year ago
I see asking someone to pray at your political event all about trying to gain some votes. Lots of people including myself read relevant mag so they were after relevant readers votes. Now they are after donald miller fans. Not bashing the dem's here. Cause i think the republicans would probably do the same. OK this dont answer the question but thats my answer.
Tyler Braun
· 1 year ago
I think Miller's response alone is one that anyone could say to not be showing favoritism. But Miller is a registered Demo so he doesn't care to show or not show favoritism. But I think if Strang would have simply said only what you quoted of Miller...then it wouldn't have been a big deal.
stephen
· 1 year ago
If government were the hope of the world, then it might be a tough decision. But since Jesus is the hope of the world, me thinks we ought to pray whenever and wherever we can. So to me it should be an issue of scheduling rather than political views.
Maybe neither of them has the stones and Strang just forgot to sync his Palm Pilot.
Fay
· 1 year ago
Kinda picking up where Adam S. did, this really isn't about the prayer but about how this makes the Democrats look. They're courting the evangelical vote like crazy this year so who better to have pray than the e.i.c/publisher of the most popular magazine among the target demographic? Like, see, we have faith too? Look who's praying at our convention? We're not a godless party after all?
It fits perfectly with the wave of stories this year about evangelicals involved in social justice issues, and not just focusing on gay marriage or abortion.
Case in point: Obama has a staff of 10 people whose sole purpose is to reach out to evangelical Christians and other communities of faith. (I think this is a good thing).
Anyway, to answer the question, I'm with Strang. He could've totally went through w/ it but sacrificed personal praise in light of the bigger picture. From a journalistic, objective p.o.v., it makes perfect sense -- as does registering as an independent.
Re: Miller, more power to him. Prayer is prayer and who knows how God can work through this? Honestly, I'd have a bigger problem if a unitarian-type, you-make-the-rules-God-is-love-do-what-you-want pastor were up there praying.
(And also for the record, I'm an indie who doesn't believe all Dems are "godless" to quote Ann Coulter. I have issues w/ both parties.)
Travis Thompson
· 1 year ago
Strang had more to lose by saying "no" (his magazine does tend to lean strongly that way - I'm a subscriber!) than Miller had to gain by saying "yes" so I'd say Strang.
Texas in Africa
· 1 year ago
'Spose it depends on what they pray.
Brian
· 1 year ago
I too would like to think that I'd say yes (It'd be exhilarating just to be asked), but likely I would say "no" because I would not want to be seen as endorsing.
As far as who has more stones... for Don, being a registered Democrat, it really doesn't seem like it would take much stones. I think that its great that he's doing it. Who knows, maybe this will open the door for him to be able to speak-up for the cause of Christ.
I also think that what Cameron did is great (and likely took some stones)! As a registered Republican, he at first saw it as a great opportunity, but then realized that many people would take his prayer as an endorsement- I think that its noble that he said "no" - At least for me, I think it would be a tough decision because even though I felt convicted I think my pride would want to stand up there in front of thousands.
I think both guys are doing the right thing in this situation.
Fay
· 1 year ago
Eh. Excuse my grammatical errors. Eye realy can spel. :)
Justin aka J Rocka
· 1 year ago
I feel like Strang dropped the ball. He dropped a bowling ball through the gym floor. His magazine speaks for a huge voice that is the pendulum swinging in this day and age for Christians.
This could have been huge. A CHRISTIAN organization at a Democratic function? It paints the picture that Christian=Republican just a bit more vividly than it needs too. Even thought that is not what is intended. I see the CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL REFUSES TO PRAY AT DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION headline coming, and it sucks. It is obvious that Strang is an Obama supporter, so I do not know what his reason is, hopefully we find out on Hannity and Colmes.
Disappointing, especially after FIRST WORD column in the new issue of RELEVANT MAGAZINE.
Adam S
· 1 year ago
The planned text of the prayer:
"Father God,
This week, as the world looks on, help the leaders in this room create a civil dialogue about our future.
We need you, God, as individuals and also as a nation.
We need you to protect us from our enemies, but also from ourselves, because we are easily tempted toward apathy.
Give us a passion to advance opportunities for the least of these, for widows and orphans, for single moms and children whose fathers have left.
Give us the eyes to see them, and the ears to hear them, and hands willing to serve them.
Help us serve people, not just causes. And stand up to specific injustices rather than vague notions.
Give those in this room who have power, along with those who will meet next week, the courage to work together to finally provide health care to those who don’t have any, and a living wage so families can thrive rather than struggle.
Hep us figure out how to pay teachers what they deserve and give children an equal opportunity to get a college education.
Help us figure out the balance between economic opportunity and corporate gluttony.
We have tried to solve these problems ourselves but they are still there. We need your help.
Father, will you restore our moral standing in the world.
A lot of people don’t like us but that’s because they don’t know the heart of the average American.
Will you give us favor and forgiveness, along with our allies around the world.
Help us be an example of humility and strength once again.
Lastly, father, unify us.
Even in our diversity help us see how much we have in common.
And unify us not just in our ideas and in our sentiments—but in our actions, as we look around and figure out something we can do to help create an America even greater than the one we have come to cherish.
God we know that you are good.
Thank you for blessing us in so many ways as Americans.
I make these requests in the name of your son, Jesus, who gave his own life against the forces of injustice.
Let Him be our example.
Amen."
meg
· 1 year ago
that's a beautiful prayer
AnnieBlogs
· 1 year ago
Los, Here's Cameron's blog post about his reasons. Did you see this already?
Miller says what he does and I think he is right. Why turn down the prayer. Even if the intention is different than the person praying, the prayer is still truth and good.
Then, why would any organization like North Point or Relevant or any place we work for, have an issue with your support of prayer. Perception is a bitch, but when it comes to prayer...should we care?
Tim
· 1 year ago
We pray as we live and live as we pray. All prayer is good prayer. That being said, i'd ike to think i would say yes, but know i'd say no. now i have to ask myself how to bridge the gap
Kari
· 1 year ago
To come "out of the closet" and admit that you are a registered democrat among the evangelical community takes some major stones.
Jackie @ Family Daze
· 1 year ago
I say GREAT as long as the prayer goes something like this:
Heavenly Father, forgive us for backing the killing of millions of babies, for stealing away American liberty by taxing us to death, for pushing rulings from the bench rather than the voting booth, for doing whatever it takes to sanctify gay marriage, for caring more about "safer" sex than moral purity, for making art grotesque, for putting animal rights and Going Green above basic human dignity, for skewing our moral compass so much that we don't know right from wrong anymore. Amen.
* Please note that this does not mean that the Republican party is perfect, but I do believe there is a great moral divide that we are foolish to ignore.
adam lehman
· 1 year ago
they both navigated a difficult decision by making decisions considering their particular contexts.
ok. i wasn't gonna go off, but....
"evangelicals" or "christians" seem so stuck on republicans as Christ-like and democrats as irreligious.
George W. Bush has a speech writer who weaves Christian phrases and ideas into his speeches. Why does he talk so openly about faith and religion? Votes. Sure he may be a Christian, but don't think that he gets so inspired into mentioning Christ or God in his speeches. That decision is a strategic, calculated act.
If you listen to Tony Campolo talk about his interactions with the democratic party or if you listen to Obama's talks about faith, you may see the most articulate Christian politician around (regardless of if you agree with his stances).
Los
· 1 year ago
Agree or disagree. Jackie wins so far. DAAAAAAAAANNNNGGGGGGGGG
James McLean
· 1 year ago
i think they should stay out of it. whoever gets voted in won't change much so it doesn't matter. Jesus came to build his church not a government. Christians should throw themselves fully into building the church of Jesus. when the church does its job we will affect change in the culture and that will eventually affect all of the country and even the world. government is a necessary evil because of the fall. so we do what we have to, we vote and pay taxes and obey laws. other than that i don't think we need to be involved. just my opinion.
carroll2125
· 1 year ago
It takes guts either way. When Strang took on the mantle to pray in front of a national audience and then turned it down that took stones, it's always easier to say 'yes'.
As the President of a business he had to think about more than what it meant to him to pray and what it could mean to his employees if his publication's core audience turned on them because of his action, then it would be on his back.
In the political world perception is everything and in that world praying at a convention is tantamount to an endorsement.
I would have prayed... not b/c of the democratic party thing but after reading the quote from Miller... but I do work for Port City Community Church and this will be brought up tomorrow with some co-workers... very intersting point about Buckhead Los (but we have the same idea with alcohol and our organization)
silentfool
· 1 year ago
I probably would have done what Strang did, however I don't fault Donald Miller for doing it. And I don't think anyone should say anything about it. He's just a man like the rest of us...
The best thing is to see a civilized comments rather than trashing D. Miller like they are over on Christianity Today.
SNOB
· 1 year ago
I would never say democrats are godless & those who do just aren't in the know. I would say that some of their policies are godless such as abortion. And can someone tell me why this alone isn't a disqualifier for support?
The US Govt isn't supposed to be our Saviour and preform all of the social good in this country or world. As a country the US is the most giving in terms of charity in the world that is because of our good fortune. The CHURCH should be responsible for the poor/widows/children,etc. that's simple scripture. The Govt can't do charity better than the church and they should stop trying. The more money I have the more money I give away. The more money I get to keep out of the govt. hands the more money I get to give away.
The big O said it last week - 250K is rich. Most folk I know who make 250K aren't RICH, meaning that they are caught up in cars, homes, etc. The more the govt gets the less those people get to keep and the less they keep the less they give away. If the big O were to become president then you guys working in the megachurches will surely see a drop in your yearly raises and those in smaller churches may have to close their doors. But don't worry - for the next 4 yrs at least we can blame racism for the reason that O didn't get to become the president. Not because he's not qualified but because the US is racist. uh, uuhhmmm, hhuuhh...
And - if the dude wants to be assoc. with Dems (or Republicans) by going then that's the label he will receive. I'm curious as to what this will do to his mag.
oh amanda
· 1 year ago
Strang.
Tim
· 1 year ago
James, if that is the case, maybe we should reconsider what we mean when we pray "thy kingdom come" God should be invited into our politics and our world conformed to his as much as possible. The first step to knowing God and becoming holy is to pray, both individually and as a nation.
haemin
· 1 year ago
both. they each did what they thought was right, and that's never easy.
Tim
· 1 year ago
Paschal, what is this idea involving alcohol and the community? I'm curious about how your community feels about this. (tmason47@gmail.com)
Derek Sweatman
· 1 year ago
I became all things to all men that I might win some. -Apostle Paul
oh amanda
· 1 year ago
& Jackie.
Jackie @ Family Daze
· 1 year ago
Jackie's husband here...Keith. My wife is wise, very wise! You all figured that out. What you don't know is a simple truth about our faith. It is never to be kept to ourselves, it is never to be given second place to our associations (Church or other wise), being given the opportunity to state and astablish what is right before God to any person or group is a privalege by God's sovreign design. The debate as to whether or not to give the prayer is the wrong question. The correct question should strike the heart of the man giving the pray: Do I have the faith to pray before God what he (Holy Spirit) has laid on my heart.
b page
· 1 year ago
miller.
His quote says it all. I thought it was a beautiful prayer. Does anyone think Donald Miller betrayed what God put on his heart to speak tonight?
Chris
· 1 year ago
Jackie @ Family Daze, I do think that you should be careful in turning this discussion into a bipartisan political discussion. That is certainly not the intention of the original post i read from Los... for every one of your arguments that implies the Republicans are God's favored ones, there are plenty on the other side... just ask Tony Campolo! I'm not going to go into them because than I will be contradicting what I've just said.
Batsirai Chada
· 1 year ago
Just watched it - very cool. But we sound like Pharisees and Sadducees arguing some unimportant topic... should He heal on the Sabbath, should they not be fasting... beware of the leaven of Herod - where even the life of God within us needs to careful consider the political ramifications...
We should be free to pray and carry His light and the kingdom into the darkest of places... even if going there means people think you are endorsing that place/lifestyle... Luke 7:36 Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. I'm sure he would have gone to Pilates pad too - had he been invited.
We don't just represent ourselves, or our organizations... we represent Christ... and if you get fired for praying at gathering of 'democrats', when you know Jesus would have gone in a heart beat - perhaps you need a new organization. We represent Jesus - first. You won't bring his cause down by going and shining... we are the salt of the earth. Nobody throws salt on salt... I say go to the democrats - to those who disagree... to any who will call for us - and we bring the name of Jesus, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
But to make decisions based on political ramifications... how far are we from Him... Jesus said to Zachy up in the tree... I am coming to your house... even if people think I endorse your dishonest tax collecting.
We are not as mature as we think we are... neither am I. Strang or Miller - I don't know... depends whom God asked to go - forget the Democrats invite... what did God ask of them? They are the ones with the stones... (as if it takes stones to pray on TV...) It takes stones to pray when the people you are standing before have stones in their hands...
Let's get some perspective.
Les
· 1 year ago
It's always about votes, whatever the party. What loses my respect is that they "hire" a professional "pray-er." That smacks of ingenuousness. America's forefathers prayed themselves. They didn't bring in a ringer. If you want to impress the people, have a prominent party leader pray. That would be real. I would have to respect that. Dems didn't get on this religious bandwagon until they thought they saw Bush getting votes for it. Then all of a sudden all the candidates (both sides) began to try to out-Jesus each other.
If you pray at a convention, you're being used. Period. But that shouldn't sway your decision. As Paul said, "Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."
I like CoryT's comment. Both guys followed their respective consciences. And they did it in a place where conscience is an outdated and irrelevant entity. That's real. That I respect.
Batsirai Chada
· 1 year ago
By the way I do love the blog Los - you ask stirring questions, but the answers were so left and right or central... political my thoughts went to one who represented the kingdom of heaven - and had no issue walking into a world of sinners - who cares what the angels think - I love them.Imagine one who could say - who cares what the church crowd thinks - He loves them, and they invited me, so I go... even at great personal cost. What light crosses we bear, if potential evangelical backlash is our primary fear...
SNOB said: "If the big O were to become president then you guys working in the megachurches will surely see a drop in your yearly raises and those in smaller churches may have to close their doors."
***
"A christian research group, Empty Tomb Inc, analyzed the six recession periods between 1968 and 2005 and their results suggest no clear connection between economic recession and a decrease in giving within a church. In fact, in three of the last six recessions, church members' giving actually went up, according to the study." -- Leadership Magazine, Spring 2008, page 11.
God works in good times. God works in bad times. God works through Strang. God works through Miller. God works through Republicans. God works through Democrats. God works. And we praise Him for it.
Andy
· 1 year ago
Miller's quote, "Somebody calls you and asks you to pray, you do." is a nice platitude, but I think it has to be taken within reason, of course.
I mean, the KKK needs someone to do their benediction, right?
I think Strang, being the figurehead of a publication, made a wise choice.
On the other hand, newspapers have traditionally, for some reason, made endorsements of candidates for years (see link below), yet they try to maintain some air of fair coverage.
"I think Strang, being the figurehead of a publication, made a wise choice."
Why? I seriously want to know why. If we believe that who we are should not be labeled by democrat or Republican, why does it mater?
I don't get it.
Eric
· 1 year ago
Just in case there hasn't been enough said on this... I think the whole perception that Democrats are "Godless" is pretty ridiculous. I'm a registered Republican, but I've found that most of my Christian friends are registered Democrats. In reality, we're all pretty moderate (postmodernism and all:-P). But either way it makes me sad to think that there are Christians who would think less of someone because they accepted an invitation to pray with a group of people who hold a lot of influence in our country right now. I do understand why Strang made the decision that he did, but in my mind, it would actually be more alienating to refuse to hang out with those folks than it would be to go and get a few people from "your side" mad at you. I don't think God cares much for our politics... the body of Christ should transcend these things.
Andy
· 1 year ago
Forget the whole Christian/democrat issue:
What if the editor of the New York Times (I have no idea if he/she is a Christian or not) was asked to pray at the DNC?
Right or wrong, it would taint how some people viewd that publication ("He's just a shill for the left!")
If you don't care if people have that perception about your paper, then you'd probably go ahead and do it.
If you did, well, then you'd probably have a long debate in your head like Strang did.
inworship
· 1 year ago
So we just bow to the almighty dollar instead of what we believe?
Andy, I understand why people do it. I don't understand why they keep doing it. If we are truly a figurehead, seems like their is some amazing opportunity to reshape how things are viewed instead of stay with the status quo. That's what I don't get. I can't speak fro Strand, but so many are fed up with all this them vs us stuff, so how are we going to change that? Not by staying with perception. My opinion.
Rachel
· 1 year ago
Both, I guess...but especially Cameron.
He kept the best interest of Relevant and the audience it represents in mind, and from what I've heard him say and write, he really didn't want all the press on this. I think the press kept it in pretty good proportion to reality, but still...most of the past few days, I wished they'd stop trying to make some big issue about it and let the man's decision respectfully stand. Cameron's a bridge builder, not a bridge burner. That alone should tell them what he's after.
Rachel
· 1 year ago
p.s. If you guys are really wondering why Cameron made the decision he did...read his blog on the issue.
I think we should give the "more stones" award to whoever could pull off a use of the phrase "more stones" in their prayer... just sayin'! Honestly though, I'm of the mind that says neither political party is perfect. While the fact that it may be perceived as an endorsement certainly complicates things, I think we should let our light shine before ALL men regardless of their political position. In the end though I think who had "more stones" may be impossible for us to determine. It may have been easier for one to do what they did than it was for the other to make their choice - we can never know their hearts.
kevin
· 1 year ago
aside from the prayer, what if Christ followers were known for simply that and nothing further? Would that not be more "threatening" than choosing a particular camp? I know this is not a very intellectually satisfying point or conclusion which is the point exactly. Any comments?
Batsirai
· 1 year ago
Jesus would probably go to the DNC, the KKK and the Wicca convention if invited. Light must shine... No matter where - or what people thought. He asks us to do the same... But of course, we need to be careful...
Mud Puppy
· 1 year ago
Was is because he wanted to sell more magazines?
Was it because his dad publicly endorsed McCain?
I hope neither are true, but I'd pray with any and all parties if given the chance. It seems silly not to.
Mud Puppy
· 1 year ago
ps. I've always read Relevant as though it were a liberal publication anyway.
Les
· 1 year ago
To pray at a political convention is not an endorsement of a party. It is the endorsement of God before all men. If you think that it's wrong to pray at a convention and you do it anyway, that's a problem. It's a matter of the heart. Both guys are doing God's will.
I believe God does care about politics because politics springs from the heart. Politics is about people. God is about people. I just don't believe He cares what party I belong to.
anon.
· 1 year ago
wisdom.
Rich Kirkpatrick
· 1 year ago
Strang was smart. He wants to influence people not on his horse yet and would have built a wall by appearing. His magazine would be less relevant if did this. ;)
How about praying at BOTH conventions? Hmmm...
Vince
· 1 year ago
The worst part of it is the fact that we are even having this discussion. And the fact that Strang had to even weigh that decision.
It would be nice if Christians could do Christian things (pray) and not get rocks hucked at them by other Christians.
Bridge
· 1 year ago
It seems strange to me that these two key voices of the modern church didn't mention praying about the request to pray. I think that's the first thing I'd have done...with my liberal leanings and my old-school conservative family. But my gut's with Donald Miller - if they ask you, then show up and pray. Donald Miller is looking awfully good these days...a little distracting from his prayer.
I am learning that in the end it's really not important what we think we ought to do but what the Holy Spirit thinks we ought to do...Leaning not toward our own understanding, but letting the Lord direct our path...Sometimes He asks us to do things that maybe don't make sense at first glance or won't make us popular with one group or another. I respect each man for his decision. And I hope that they not only thought about it with their minds but also with their Spirits tuned into the One who knows the Way.
I hope and pray that Miller's genuine faith has an impact on anyone who might need a touch from their Father who loves them with an audacious, crazy love.
Karen
· 1 year ago
Jackie said it. I respect all the opinions here, too. I think both guys did what they needed to do (Strang and Miller)
Scott
· 1 year ago
I have no problem with praying for somebody of a different political persuasion, but that's not the issue. The Democrats pick who gives the prayer based on political calculations designed to draw in more voters. Strang just didn't want to be a pawn in that game, and I salute him for it. If I remember correctly, he was going to do it, until he realized it would be televised. It serves a different purpose entirely when it's televised.
Patrick Loyd
· 1 year ago
No, you don't represent Buckhead Church but Christ Jesus himself. Christ IS the church. Buckhead is but wood, steel and concrete and is but a hollow, shallow space if not filled with people who will take every opportunity to worship Jesus, praise Jesus and share Jesus with the world. To some, it may have been but a simple prayer fit into the program but it was more than that...it was an opportunity to share our love and faith with a nation. It was an opportunity to pray for our nation and our leaders. Who knows, the simple mention of the word, Jesus during that prayer may have caused a lost soul to get down on his/her knees and accept Christ as their personal Savior. We don't know how people are being convicted at any given time.
I work for Child Protective Services, and I represent the state of GA. but if someone I am working with asks me to pray for them, I do it. At that moment, I am a representative of Christ and it is a divine opportunity to minister to that family. If the state found out and I was fired, so be it. I worship a mighty Lord and He will provide. I am concerned only about pleasing Him at that moment.
Truthfully, if you were called to give that prayer, I believe you would have. I believe you, and most other disciples of Christ would have recognized the importance of being used by God in that moment, however small or brief.
kevin
· 1 year ago
patrick very well said and that viewpoint or worldview is what i beleive is what is missing most in the church today. accepting substitutes or symbols in place of reality, indeed leads us down a path that encourages pleasing man over God.
Mike
· 1 year ago
99.9%? Really? That's probably more than the Democrats believe about themselves in their own pub. Interesting.
I vote for Strang. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone to pray considering it was an "Interfaith" representation. I agree that a Christian should represent and offer a sincere prayer, but when it comes right down to it, they would be just a pawn in a big "look how spiritual, tolerant, and open we are to faith" game. Complete BS. Strang chose not to play and I commend him for it.
Both conventions are a big show and I doubt the sincerity of either. However, we should still show up to both with the authentic banner of Christ.
If Obama wants to display his Christian faith in action HE should have offered up a prayer. But I guess that would have hurt his credibility with his supporters.
Personally if I had to make the decision, I would choose to pray at both conventions or not at all. I don't believe in partisan prayer used for partisan means, which will ultimately divide people.
Adrienne
· 1 year ago
Dave wins. God works.
Adrienne
· 1 year ago
There are ethics and conflicts of interest associated with a lot of careers. If I were caught stripping, I would lose my state teaching license. Lots of careers, including newspaper publishers and ministers, have limitations on some of the opinions they can act on. God isn't limited by that.
dee dee
· 1 year ago
i actually think it took guts to say yes. to know the perceptions that people have and to choose not to be defined or ruled by them shows real courage. my question is this: had miller prayed at the rnc, would this post or these comments even be in existence right now? as i re-read this comment i can't help but chuckle. knowing the perceptions that people will have after reading it. trying to decide if it's a good idea to post it. and then re-reading and realizing that i now have to. ha!
All Comments
Los, I do have a question. This isn't meant to start a flamewar, I'm genuinely curious. Would you mind explaining how you can be supportive of Democrats in light of things like abortion and the way that the party seems to have a strong affection for hate crime legislation in Canada? I don't mean that to sound nearly as antagonistic as it looks, it's just something that I was wanting to ask. If you'd rather e-mail your response to keep the blog from going political, I'd understand that.
Just as an aside, I've been poking around your blog for about a month now, and I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for letting God use you to touch the lives of lots of people over this wonderful thing we call the internet.
strang i guess.
Los
Although Miller accepted the invitation, I don't think less of him. He had to pray before he was asked to pray to be given the opportunity. He's not a heathen for doing it. God transcends political boundaries.
Maybe neither of them has the stones and Strang just forgot to sync his Palm Pilot.
It fits perfectly with the wave of stories this year about evangelicals involved in social justice issues, and not just focusing on gay marriage or abortion.
Case in point: Obama has a staff of 10 people whose sole purpose is to reach out to evangelical Christians and other communities of faith. (I think this is a good thing).
Anyway, to answer the question, I'm with Strang. He could've totally went through w/ it but sacrificed personal praise in light of the bigger picture. From a journalistic, objective p.o.v., it makes perfect sense -- as does registering as an independent.
Re: Miller, more power to him. Prayer is prayer and who knows how God can work through this? Honestly, I'd have a bigger problem if a unitarian-type, you-make-the-rules-God-is-love-do-what-you-want pastor were up there praying.
(And also for the record, I'm an indie who doesn't believe all Dems are "godless" to quote Ann Coulter. I have issues w/ both parties.)
As far as who has more stones... for Don, being a registered Democrat, it really doesn't seem like it would take much stones. I think that its great that he's doing it. Who knows, maybe this will open the door for him to be able to speak-up for the cause of Christ.
I also think that what Cameron did is great (and likely took some stones)! As a registered Republican, he at first saw it as a great opportunity, but then realized that many people would take his prayer as an endorsement- I think that its noble that he said "no" - At least for me, I think it would be a tough decision because even though I felt convicted I think my pride would want to stand up there in front of thousands.
I think both guys are doing the right thing in this situation.
This could have been huge. A CHRISTIAN organization at a Democratic function? It paints the picture that Christian=Republican just a bit more vividly than it needs too. Even thought that is not what is intended. I see the CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL REFUSES TO PRAY AT DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION headline coming, and it sucks.
It is obvious that Strang is an Obama supporter, so I do not know what his reason is, hopefully we find out on Hannity and Colmes.
Disappointing, especially after FIRST WORD column in the new issue of RELEVANT MAGAZINE.
"Father God,
This week, as the world looks on, help the leaders in this room create a civil dialogue about our future.
We need you, God, as individuals and also as a nation.
We need you to protect us from our enemies, but also from ourselves, because we are easily tempted toward apathy.
Give us a passion to advance opportunities for the least of these, for widows and orphans, for single moms and children whose fathers have left.
Give us the eyes to see them, and the ears to hear them, and hands willing to serve them.
Help us serve people, not just causes. And stand up to specific injustices rather than vague notions.
Give those in this room who have power, along with those who will meet next week, the courage to work together to finally provide health care to those who don’t have any, and a living wage so families can thrive rather than struggle.
Hep us figure out how to pay teachers what they deserve and give children an equal opportunity to get a college education.
Help us figure out the balance between economic opportunity and corporate gluttony.
We have tried to solve these problems ourselves but they are still there. We need your help.
Father, will you restore our moral standing in the world.
A lot of people don’t like us but that’s because they don’t know the heart of the average American.
Will you give us favor and forgiveness, along with our allies around the world.
Help us be an example of humility and strength once again.
Lastly, father, unify us.
Even in our diversity help us see how much we have in common.
And unify us not just in our ideas and in our sentiments—but in our actions, as we look around and figure out something we can do to help create an America even greater than the one we have come to cherish.
God we know that you are good.
Thank you for blessing us in so many ways as Americans.
I make these requests in the name of your son, Jesus, who gave his own life against the forces of injustice.
Let Him be our example.
Amen."
http://relevantmagazine.com/releblog/cameronsqa...
I agree- it took some guts to say no.
Then, why would any organization like North Point or Relevant or any place we work for, have an issue with your support of prayer. Perception is a bitch, but when it comes to prayer...should we care?
Heavenly Father, forgive us for backing the killing of millions of babies, for stealing away American liberty by taxing us to death, for pushing rulings from the bench rather than the voting booth, for doing whatever it takes to sanctify gay marriage, for caring more about "safer" sex than moral purity, for making art grotesque, for putting animal rights and Going Green above basic human dignity, for skewing our moral compass so much that we don't know right from wrong anymore. Amen.
* Please note that this does not mean that the Republican party is perfect, but I do believe there is a great moral divide that we are foolish to ignore.
ok. i wasn't gonna go off, but....
"evangelicals" or "christians" seem so stuck on republicans as Christ-like and democrats as irreligious.
George W. Bush has a speech writer who weaves Christian phrases and ideas into his speeches. Why does he talk so openly about faith and religion? Votes. Sure he may be a Christian, but don't think that he gets so inspired into mentioning Christ or God in his speeches. That decision is a strategic, calculated act.
If you listen to Tony Campolo talk about his interactions with the democratic party or if you listen to Obama's talks about faith, you may see the most articulate Christian politician around (regardless of if you agree with his stances).
DAAAAAAAAANNNNGGGGGGGGG
Jesus came to build his church not a government. Christians should throw themselves fully into building the church of Jesus. when the church does its job we will affect change in the culture and that will eventually affect all of the country and even the world. government is a necessary evil because of the fall. so we do what we have to, we vote and pay taxes and obey laws. other than that i don't think we need to be involved. just my opinion.
As the President of a business he had to think about more than what it meant to him to pray and what it could mean to his employees if his publication's core audience turned on them because of his action, then it would be on his back.
In the political world perception is everything and in that world praying at a convention is tantamount to an endorsement.
www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
The best thing is to see a civilized comments rather than trashing D. Miller like they are over on Christianity Today.
The US Govt isn't supposed to be our Saviour and preform all of the social good in this country or world. As a country the US is the most giving in terms of charity in the world that is because of our good fortune. The CHURCH should be responsible for the poor/widows/children,etc. that's simple scripture. The Govt can't do charity better than the church and they should stop trying. The more money I have the more money I give away. The more money I get to keep out of the govt. hands the more money I get to give away.
The big O said it last week - 250K is rich. Most folk I know who make 250K aren't RICH, meaning that they are caught up in cars, homes, etc. The more the govt gets the less those people get to keep and the less they keep the less they give away. If the big O were to become president then you guys working in the megachurches will surely see a drop in your yearly raises and those in smaller churches may have to close their doors. But don't worry - for the next 4 yrs at least we can blame racism for the reason that O didn't get to become the president. Not because he's not qualified but because the US is racist. uh, uuhhmmm, hhuuhh...
And - if the dude wants to be assoc. with Dems (or Republicans) by going then that's the label he will receive. I'm curious as to what this will do to his mag.
-Apostle Paul
His quote says it all. I thought it was a beautiful prayer. Does anyone think Donald Miller betrayed what God put on his heart to speak tonight?
We should be free to pray and carry His light and the kingdom into the darkest of places... even if going there means people think you are endorsing that place/lifestyle...
Luke 7:36 Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. I'm sure he would have gone to Pilates pad too - had he been invited.
We don't just represent ourselves, or our organizations... we represent Christ... and if you get fired for praying at gathering of 'democrats', when you know Jesus would have gone in a heart beat - perhaps you need a new organization. We represent Jesus - first. You won't bring his cause down by going and shining... we are the salt of the earth. Nobody throws salt on salt... I say go to the democrats - to those who disagree... to any who will call for us - and we bring the name of Jesus, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
But to make decisions based on political ramifications... how far are we from Him... Jesus said to Zachy up in the tree... I am coming to your house... even if people think I endorse your dishonest tax collecting.
We are not as mature as we think we are... neither am I. Strang or Miller - I don't know... depends whom God asked to go - forget the Democrats invite... what did God ask of them? They are the ones with the stones... (as if it takes stones to pray on TV...) It takes stones to pray when the people you are standing before have stones in their hands...
Let's get some perspective.
If you pray at a convention, you're being used. Period. But that shouldn't sway your decision. As Paul said, "Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."
I like CoryT's comment. Both guys followed their respective consciences. And they did it in a place where conscience is an outdated and irrelevant entity. That's real. That I respect.
***
"A christian research group, Empty Tomb Inc, analyzed the six recession periods between 1968 and 2005 and their results suggest no clear connection between economic recession and a decrease in giving within a church. In fact, in three of the last six recessions, church members' giving actually went up, according to the study." -- Leadership Magazine, Spring 2008, page 11.
God works in good times. God works in bad times. God works through Strang. God works through Miller. God works through Republicans. God works through Democrats. God works. And we praise Him for it.
I mean, the KKK needs someone to do their benediction, right?
I think Strang, being the figurehead of a publication, made a wise choice.
On the other hand, newspapers have traditionally, for some reason, made endorsements of candidates for years (see link below), yet they try to maintain some air of fair coverage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsem...
Why? I seriously want to know why. If we believe that who we are should not be labeled by democrat or Republican, why does it mater?
I don't get it.
What if the editor of the New York Times (I have no idea if he/she is a Christian or not) was asked to pray at the DNC?
Right or wrong, it would taint how some people viewd that publication ("He's just a shill for the left!")
If you don't care if people have that perception about your paper, then you'd probably go ahead and do it.
If you did, well, then you'd probably have a long debate in your head like Strang did.
Andy, I understand why people do it. I don't understand why they keep doing it. If we are truly a figurehead, seems like their is some amazing opportunity to reshape how things are viewed instead of stay with the status quo. That's what I don't get. I can't speak fro Strand, but so many are fed up with all this them vs us stuff, so how are we going to change that? Not by staying with perception. My opinion.
He kept the best interest of Relevant and the audience it represents in mind, and from what I've heard him say and write, he really didn't want all the press on this. I think the press kept it in pretty good proportion to reality, but still...most of the past few days, I wished they'd stop trying to make some big issue about it and let the man's decision respectfully stand. Cameron's a bridge builder, not a bridge burner. That alone should tell them what he's after.
relevantmagazine.com/releblog/cameronsqa/why-i-accepted—and-then-declined—an-invitation-to-pray-at-the-dnc/
Light must shine... No matter where - or what people thought.
He asks us to do the same... But of course, we need to be careful...
Was it because his dad publicly endorsed McCain?
I hope neither are true, but I'd pray with any and all parties if given the chance. It seems silly not to.
I believe God does care about politics because politics springs from the heart. Politics is about people. God is about people. I just don't believe He cares what party I belong to.
How about praying at BOTH conventions? Hmmm...
It would be nice if Christians could do Christian things (pray) and not get rocks hucked at them by other Christians.
I hope and pray that Miller's genuine faith has an impact on anyone who might need a touch from their Father who loves them with an audacious, crazy love.
I work for Child Protective Services, and I represent the state of GA. but if someone I am working with asks me to pray for them, I do it. At that moment, I am a representative of Christ and it is a divine opportunity to minister to that family. If the state found out and I was fired, so be it. I worship a mighty Lord and He will provide. I am concerned only about pleasing Him at that moment.
Truthfully, if you were called to give that prayer, I believe you would have. I believe you, and most other disciples of Christ would have recognized the importance of being used by God in that moment, however small or brief.
very well said
and that viewpoint or worldview is what i beleive is what is missing most in the church today.
accepting substitutes or symbols in place of reality, indeed leads us down a path that encourages pleasing man over God.
I vote for Strang. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone to pray considering it was an "Interfaith" representation. I agree that a Christian should represent and offer a sincere prayer, but when it comes right down to it, they would be just a pawn in a big "look how spiritual, tolerant, and open we are to faith" game. Complete BS. Strang chose not to play and I commend him for it.
Both conventions are a big show and I doubt the sincerity of either. However, we should still show up to both with the authentic banner of Christ.
If Obama wants to display his Christian faith in action HE should have offered up a prayer. But I guess that would have hurt his credibility with his supporters.
Personally if I had to make the decision, I would choose to pray at both conventions or not at all. I don't believe in partisan prayer used for partisan means, which will ultimately divide people.
as i re-read this comment i can't help but chuckle. knowing the perceptions that people will have after reading it. trying to decide if it's a good idea to post it. and then re-reading and realizing that i now have to. ha!