DISQUS

Fred McKinnon · 1 year ago

Carlos,

That's a classic man ... good stuff!
Fred

Truitt · 1 year ago

i think about this a lot.

Mocha · 1 year ago

"Just waiting for you to show me how to feel that thing you were feeling.
Maybe next week."

Oh man, that cuts deep. Honest, real, and very timely... Solid points that need to be discussed, and revealed. Bravo.

Matt Bunk · 1 year ago

How does worship become something more than Sunday. It's a great topic and actually something, i've spent the last few weeks teaching a Sunday morning class on. It really starts by realizing we have poisoned the definition of worship and for that individual to live a passionate life like the one seen on stage it starts with worshipping everywhere not just on stage. Good book by Louie Giglio called The Air I Breathe, does a decent job of showing how and why worship is a day in and day out thing. I wouldn't say the book is revolutionary, but it's a super easy read (1 or 2 sittings) and is a great refresher for any worship leader.

One of the best points he makes is that we are going to worship. We are wired to do it. We are born to do it. We will worship. We ultimately decide who and what we will worship and in the end only one thing is worthy of our worship.

Good topic Los.

Los · 1 year ago

Yea Truitt. Me too

artsymom31 · 1 year ago

so, how do you respond to that as a worship leader? i think that is such a common feeling!

Jason Bean · 1 year ago

As usual. Straight to the point and straight to the heart. Keep it up. Continuing helping us remove our rose-colored glasses and see the reality around us. Reality is much more than just a term for a genre of TV.

Brian · 1 year ago

This type of thing has been on my mind a lot lately. I think you look at it from a great perspective; I think we could all learn a lot by looking at many of the things we do from the perspective of "That Dude Who Just Came Back To Church After 10 Years Because Church Sucks"

Thanks for challenging us to see things a little differently.

Jay Sellers · 1 year ago

Can I preorder your fist book?

vagabondrunn · 1 year ago

I guess my thought is...how do we do it different? How do we get up on stage, or sit in the seats and worship with a conviction, so others around us can see and feel how we feel? Is it even possible? How much of this stuff can we control and how much is personal conviction for each person?

Hmm...this brings up many questions for me.

www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com

John Ireland · 1 year ago

exactly...as a seeker-targered church, we at qcc feel that reality every week (at least, i hope so!).

weekend experiences are a key component to serving God by drawing his kids back to Him and then growing true disicples, BUT it is only one component.

i'd love to see your "letter" back to this dude. :)

Vicky Beeching · 1 year ago

That is amazing.... nice work Carlos... if we are not reaching 'that guy' we are not doing our job.... Thanks for the challenge!! And I agree that you should write a book : )

Jen · 1 year ago

Ouch. That is alot to think about though. Thanks

6YearMed · 1 year ago

I must say, I love when you post crap about nothing, but I also like when you get this way. I have a feeling you are 'this way' more than you let on. But, then again, what do I know? Very good, Carlos. Very good.

Steve Murphy · 1 year ago

Well, that sure got me riled up.

This just reminds me that we can't be consumed with doing churchy things for churchy people. If our church services aren't an avenue for that guy to encounter Christ, or at least a place where he can see that we really are, we're spinning our wheels.

Keep shaking the cage, Carlos!

brad · 1 year ago

A good friend of mine (like you're dude) was impacted NOT by the worship leader and what he did, but by the announcement guy and how he worshiped after he was on stage. Sunday after sunday he would watch ... and then he finally opened up to me and we walked through conversation and faith together. It would be great to dialogue with "dude"(es) to get their take and see how we can become more authentic and how to teach/companionize (not a word - but I thought I'd try it) alongside our people.
Thought provoking post

adam · 1 year ago

That's a powerful thing you've written. I hope it gets out to the seekers to know that God does love them and we do understand how hard it is.

Robert Pooley · 1 year ago

Did i miss the part where we actually finds out where he got the jeans?

Michiel · 1 year ago

I just realized how blessed I am as a worship leader with only 1 drummer, 1 bas player, 1 guitar player and, well, a flute player.

We just don't get there with all the energy and the chest pounding thing.

Oh yeah and my jeans aren't 'rad'.

Good point, though... Consumer or consumee? Entertainer? Or impacted by the Glory of God.

drew · 1 year ago

you hit it on the head los, (it read as... me) gotta remember the real purpose...

Jay · 1 year ago

I think Brad hit the word...authentic. All we can and should be is that. If we are that way on stage, we should be that way off stage and in private and with our families. Not the chest pounding per se, although I admit that goes on a little bit, but the passionate worshiping.

Tara R · 1 year ago

so well said! When I first started regularly attending church I continuously wondered whether the people on stage REALLY felt that way or if they were faking it. Because I TOTALLY did not feel that way. I didn't know the songs. I didn't really know Jesus all that well yet, and I felt a little like it was trying to mimic the rock concerts I attended. I wondered if the passion was because the music was great or because of some real connection with Jesus. After all, people at rock concerts get equally as emotional and passionate about whatever band is singing. Ever seen people at a U2 concert? Just photoshop them into a church building... or photoshop some worship leaders in place of U2 and bingo, you've got what appears to be an incredibly spiritual experience.

Anyway, great letter.

Lori · 1 year ago

It is a thought provoking post for real. But I too wonder how real it is OFF the stage. How do we live out what we express? I experienced great disappointment this week in those that call themselves christ followers .. it seems more like 'whatever feels good to me' followers.

Sorry .. perhaps i shouldnt post this. But it is my reality right now.

Joanna Kurtz · 1 year ago

Did you say "rad?"

bobby · 1 year ago

Good reminder.

Adam O · 1 year ago

Los,

Great post. Makes you stand back and think. Thank you for sharing and giving everyone here something to think about. I know this is gonna be a good journal entry in myt devo's

b/ · 1 year ago

I've heard this said, "Real people get saved when they see real people worshiping a real God in a real way."

Are you saying this is not true?

Jim Henry · 1 year ago

I'm speechless...thanks for that Los!

Jesse Phillips · 1 year ago

Los! Thanks for this!

I love the topic. IT'S HUGE that you bring this up. WE NEED TO BE THINKING about the outsiders.

But, Los, I love you, I must disagree. I don't think outsiders see authentic passion in worship leaders. worship seems the least authentic part of the service to me, as a Christian. The non-Christians I've talked to don't seem to see "worship" as authentic - they think it's weird.

Rachel · 1 year ago

People have no clue how close this is to the reality of how people really think. Great post!

Tabitha · 1 year ago

I feel like that a lot. It's great to be up there on stage worshipping...but how do I get to that point? I'm usually wondering what's wrong with me because I must be doing something wrong.

Although I do have to say that our worship team is authentic. It's not an act but I don't have what they have. Am I different?

los · 1 year ago

great conversation. But alas I disagree with jeSse. I left a church where we never really thought about making it "safe" for the new person. I have a list of hundreds of people who had never stepped foot in a church before sandals and were drawn in by the worship. I think when given wholeheartedly, people desire that connection. I've seen it for 9 years first hand. Buy then again. Your friends never stepped into that gymnasium.

another dude who thinks church · 1 year ago

is worship limited to singing? i at one point thought so and could not get myself to that point of chest beating passion, i felt disapointed and that i was letting god down by my lack of passion.
i have since learned that worship is a way of life.
i really wish churches would realize this and incorporate all aspects of worship into 'worship'
maybe when this happens and i am allowed in church to worship god without bunch of preconcieved notions about how i should do this (songs sung, hands raised, pounding my chest with passion) i will stop thinking church sucks and start to go again

b/ · 1 year ago

worship is not limited singing. Neither is "church-going" about what makes us happy or about people doing the things we like rather its about us giving ourselves to God and being an encouragement to other believers. The writer of Hebrews implores us to not forsake gathering with the body.

Tim · 1 year ago

I just left a church after faithfully serving 3 years on the worship team. Our team vision was: "To lead lives of worship, and to lead others into living lives of worship." it's what we were created to do. We try to complicate it - the spirit of the "outsiders" will witness with what it was created to do - worship.

It's frustrating to be passionate about being in the Presence of God as He inhabits our praises, and exhorting others to do the same, yet being judged for my passion by the guy on row 3 with his arms crossed. That's a curious bit of irony right there that made me chuckle.

The Presence alone will be offensive to some, and my response to the Presence will offend others still, yet I will worship in Spirit and Truth with little concern for the mannequins. The worship service is where we worship, the streets are where we do church. We still have it backwards folks, so now I'm out looking for THAT church.

Pray naked.

TM

Nathan Wright · 1 year ago

wow. this hit me hard. would you mind if i borrowed it to send to the guys in my band?

Scott · 1 year ago

I've already forwarded this to our worship leader. Thanks for your candor and honesty. I think we all need to get real. Real with ourselves.

Meghan · 1 year ago

I find that I relate most with "another guy who thinks church sucks" and Time on this one. And you too Carlos.

I stand in the congregation during the music time at Buckhead and long for those around me to know that it's so much more than just nice music to applaud after each song. I want to show them that there is no right or wrong way in how one worships the Father. The guy pumping his fist isn't anymore loved by the Lord than the one sitting in their chair.

Tim, I hear you on how things seem backwards at times. I heard this once,

"If you ever find the perfect church don't go 'cause you'll just screw it up."

I'm going to stop because it's 3am and my thoughts are too scattered for me to try and make sense of them here.

Johannes · 1 year ago

the guy who wrote that letter might as well have been me. im just not feeling it. almost every time i raise my voice or lift my hands up, it feels like something self-produced. i wanna be there, and im pushing myself to be there. i dont get christianity. but i trust it. im just trying to create that passion in myself that i just cant seem to grasp any other way. "..maybe everyone else in the building is just like me and wanting that chest beating passion as well."? might very well be, but no one else is voicing it. thanks for this post. was my favorite so far. i think itd be awesome if you wrote a response to it.

Tim · 1 year ago

Johannes - you made one of the most incredible poignant inspiring and challenging comments I've heard in a very long time. You said, "I don't get Christianity but I trust it." That nailed me bro, and brought me to conclude this: Surrender follows trust. Passion follows surrender.

There's a great song written by Marc James called "Surrender"...check out this verse: "I'm giving you my heart, and all that is within. I lay it all down for the sake of you my King. I'm giving you my dreams, I'm laying down my rights. I'm giving up my pride for the promise of new life."

Surrender your right to over analyze your worship of our King and just love on Him. Welcome to the Kingdom my friend.

Tim · 1 year ago

Meghan - I love what you said about "no right or wrong way to worship God." I hear your heart.

I'm not looking for the perfect church because I know we're all work in process. I just want to journey with folks who aren't plastic and leadership that is not afraid to get it wrong sometimes, and will allow congregants the same space.

I just can't stand the polished "production" mentality with the "schedule" or "agenda" that fits a timeless God into a 20 minute set and an bour and a half worth of exigesis because some guy's pride over his sermon series is more important than loving a hurting people. . sorry for the soapbox sis. TM

NotFromCalifornia · 1 year ago

Hmm. I didn't get that at all from the "letter." I got a sense of making a lot of assumptions based on a very limited perspective, combined with some self-congratulation. For all you know, the guy could have been thinking, "These folks need to get over themselves" not "How can I be like them?"

Not everyone wants to fit in with the crowd. Not everyone wants to worship the same way. Some people are just not overtly demonstrative in any part of their life. It's their nature, their personality, how God made them.

But in most churches of this type, they're considered second-class christians for being who they are, and they're pressured to be that way and made to feel guilty because they aren't. And the worship leader and everyone else impose their pre-conceptions on how christians should act in a worship services and write letters that project their own personalities onto other people to presume to know what they're thinking, and the set out to determine how they can "fix" the one who isn't like them so they will be more like everyone else.

Just like the graphic on top. One of these is not like the other. Dammit, we got to make them all the same.

Says who?

Josh Bollen · 1 year ago

Hey Carlos,
I've been reading your blog since the first year I met you at Re:create and I'm just now beginning to comment :) sorry!

But this post was great! I think as worship leaders, one of the hardest things to remember is that we have to TEACH worship. I work with high school students, and i think it is sometimes even more important for me to remember this because I'm helping to set the foundation for their mindset at perspective on what worship is, and what a great "worship experience" can be.

Thanks for your thoughts and bringing this to attention!

kim · 1 year ago

I've been thinking about this post for over 24 hours. It's very very provocative (in a good way). I've had about 6 different strands of response, most of which have already been mentioned. So here are the remaining ones I've been tossing around in my head:

- why should it be the goal of any worship attender to 'feel' the same as it looks like some one else is feeling?

- is physical posture a true measure of commitment to following Christ? I have this internal debate all the time. To some degree, it IS... just like body language measures all kinds of other things. And there's the cheering-crowd-at-the-football-game factor; if we can go nuts over a touchdown, shouldn't we be able to muster physical enthusiasm over the gospel? (I say this as someone who doesn't actually go crazy at football games)

- (this is the one that really gets me, because I need to figure it out) HOW do we show people 'how to get there' (with the assumption that there is a valid 'there' for which to aim)? How? How in 15-20-30 minutes a week? If people come expecting that the worship gathering is the only place to experience and express true passion for God, how can we accomplish the teaching, the modeling, and all the important angles of worship in the time allotted?

In the end, I truly believe that our worship gatherings are to celebrate what we've been experiencing all week... the presence of a sovereign God in all our circumstances. And those gatherings can be punctuated with praise, or confession, or mourning, or joy. But the expression of worship comes out of our every day...and when you gather 100, 400, 1500, or 6000 of those 'every day initiated' worshipers together, the experience is like nothing else. How someone gets that as a newcomer.... it has to be experienced over time, and it has to be accompanied by living life alongside someone who gets it. As someone said above, that's how worship leaves the auditorium.

kim · 1 year ago

(oh, I forgot to say....) maybe. :)

Nick Asolas · 1 year ago

Good debate. I happen to think that it is easy for us to make 'worship time' in church a form of spiritual pornography... just a self-serving, dirty imitation of the real deal with all the same feelings.

But what does it look like to worship in spirit and in truth? (Jn 4:23) I dunno. I just know that for the first time in 10 years, I have managed lately to turn off the "worship debate" in my brain and listen to Jesus during the music in church. Its good.

I just realized I forwarded this post to my worship leader at church, I hope he doesn't think I am accusing him of this stuff... crap, how can I un-send an email?

j a n · 1 year ago

I see I'm coming in at the end of a great discussion. Lots of great insight here about how people get to a place where they actually can worship.

I've often thought we simply plan our services backwards. People come in to a worship service after a hard week at work, not enough money to pay the bills, an argument with their spouse that morning and a kid who threw up in the car. We start off first thing with high praise, and many times people are just not mentally ready. They're not "there" yet.

Maybe we should put the message first in the service. This is the stuff that reminds us why we're here - God loves us and really does have everything under control. Once you get refocused on that... you feel like standing and singing and maybe even pounding on your chest. :-)

Robert Smith · 1 year ago

Los not only do worship leaders worry about this, but so do we as members and attendees. When we finally get our friends, neighbors and other unchurched people into the Church, is the Church going to be able to deliver? This is where our faith and trust in the Lord has to come into play. I have seen alot of "Worship Leaders" some have the passion of you or Lee McDermit, but also have seen some with sunglasses on and some that did not know who Jesus was, but they are on stage and that is all that counts. Also I believe that a Worship leader and the speaking Pastor need to compliment each other not going in different directions, but living the same vision.

Joni · 1 year ago

Dear Dude Who Just Came Back To Church After 10 Years Because Church Sucks,
I really appreciate you letting me know where you're at. When I am up front and leading the music portion of worship, I have spent a lot of time working through the music, the message of the music and of the service itself, consulting in prayer and reading the bible. So a lot of planning does go into it. The reason you see me so physically engaged is that I have spent years on a journey getting to know God and developing that relationiship. So what you see is my expression of love and gratitude as an artist to God. My passion hopefully will inspire others to come with me.
Your letter reminds me that we are all in different places on our spiritual journey so some of us in service are sold out and totally committed and have no problem getting physical. Others may not be comfortable in that outward an expression but may worship extravagantly in other areas of their lives(giving, volunteering time, caring for others, etc.). I don't know that I have a how-to for you but the best thing I can suggest is to come back next week, don't worry about throwing your arms around, clapping or beating your chest. Just come with an open mind and heart to hear maybe one thing that God is trying to say to you whether you hear it in the music or the speaker or a kind person you meet. One step at a time and maybe someday you'll feel an authentic pull to be more exuberant. Or maybe not. Worship isn't just getting into the music or the vibe, its a genuine expression of how we feel/what we know about God. So to 'get there', just get to know God. Please keep in touch as you journey on.

Thanks again and God bless your investigation,
A worship leader who used to lead but doesn't anymore

Joni · 1 year ago

OK, the signature was mine not yours. A little confusing.

loswhit · 1 year ago

Joni. That was amazing!!!

loswhit · 1 year ago

Oh. And guys. Sometimes we read too far into things. Take the post for what it is. A letter from an attender to me about the service not asking for what my thesis is on worship as a lifestyle.
That is another letter.
;)
Los

Tim · 1 year ago

Los - this is where I think we still miss the mark - making a distinction between the two (worship service/lifestyle). As many of the comments have stated, the worship service (see participation) is an extension of who we are and what our lives are about. So write THAT letter soon. :)

Everlasting His Light will shine when all else fades - including the service and the sermon. The Cry of my heart is to bring Him Praise from the inside out (and upside down) whether sitting in a pew or traffic.

Tim

Los · 1 year ago

Tim. Alas. After 13 years of trying to figure this out every Sunday, I think you are missing the point. You are so focused on definition that you are forgetting the call to cooperate worship. You know well that I know that taking the trash out is an act of worship in the same way as singing in the auditorium every Sunday. Going to bed with my wife every night is an act of worship.
But we are talking about the service. An hour on Sunday morning. I think you are letting us all know that worship is 24/7. We get that. Seriously. We do. But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water and state that the 20 minutes I get on Sunday to lead people to a Risen Savior in song is not going to get attention. IT is going to get a lot of attention therefor I am going to do it to the best of my ability and THAT is worship. The rehearsal and playing on the morning.
And if we (the church) are going to give that much of a time slot to singing, you best teach them why.

Great discussion.

Tim · 1 year ago

Los - I think you have the hardest yet most incredible job/calling in the world, and no doubt you do it very well, so please understand my perspective is not to criticize or strain gnats. I love what you have to say, and I am challenged by your journey that you have shared in this medium. This IS a great discussion as evidenced by the many comments of the bride. Ain't she a beaut?!!

This particular discussion touched on a subject near and dear to me - corporate worship. What people define as worship is unique to the individual, and the expression thereof even moreso. For me personally - it looks like a posture bent toward Jesus at all times.

My worship experience in the corporate setting was manipulated by man's agenda for so long that I had no choice but to live it daily which is a positive effect of a negative situation. I finally left that setting and vowed to only attend a church that gives room for the ministry of the Holy Spirit without the constraint of the 12:00 deadline so we could all rush toward the cafeteria or watering hole.

For the record - I've only attended 3 churches (regularly) in my entire life (across 40 years). I'm 48. Right now I'm in a place wher I feel like "doing church" sucks, but "being" one is way cool.

I've been so wearied by sermon series that were developed by some guy when he was in seminary ten years earlier which has little relevance to what the congreagation needs today, that I'd rather stay home and watch HGTV or plug in a HILLSONG CD. So I readily identify with the guy that says "church sucks," yet I'm mystified by the crossing of the arms. See how messed up I am?

What i think is cool is that as messed up as we all are -He that began a good work in us will carry it on to completion - HE authored it - He'll perfect it. That's freedom to fail which inspires me to love freely. As one who has been forgiven much, I love much. I see you do too and that inspires me Los.

As we would take the platform each Sunday for our 20 minutes, my worship Pastor Barry would say, "Let's give 'em Heaven." Periodically, he'd say - "Let's melt some faces!" If you do enough of the former, the latter will happen. Keep giving them Heaven bro - and give 'em twenty minutes of face-melting Jesus and He'll take care of the rest.

Again - I love what you share here and I'm glad there's no prerequisite to agree totally. I love ya man.

Tim

Ronni · 1 year ago

Los, just spent a few days picking the brain of Casey Corum and read this to a few peeps there. We all sat there going... woah. Yeah. Really. We want to be "relevant"... but seriously, we need that personal intimacy with God to be shown in our lives. In the outward manifestation that mesmerizes them and they don't know why! Heck I want them to see it at Walmart or the grocery, not just on that stage. I want them to know that what we do up there is an overflow from the deep, satisfying, all consuming love that we have for a Savior that has rocked our world and changed the very fabric of who we are. Casey said today that the church went from worship being a way of life to segregated times of prayer and praise. We need to get the idea of it being a way of life and the way we are more so than anything else.

Just been a lot on mind heart lately and you posting this was so timely. Thanks dude.

Los · 1 year ago

Well put Tim. Well put. And yes. I love that you call it for what it is. We need more commenters around here to do the same.

Joni · 1 year ago

Thanks. When I was a worship team leader(we had about 6 that rotated each weekend)at my old church, we would literally try to communicate the "worship disclaimer" from time to time to anyone who might get freaked out by our expression. That way we could stay true to who we were and still let people feel a part of it even if they didn't want to stand, sing, clap, whatever. It was an amazing experience. Now I get to teach my 3 kids about worship. So that's fun.

dee dee · 1 year ago

tears. i'm laying here knowing i have to be at north point to pound on my own chest in 3 hours, having the notorious saturday night struggles... and i read this. tears.

Joshua Seller · 1 year ago

Los- love the perspective.
After finished reading it, I wondered what role the Holy Spirit plays in revealing "the things of God" to people who come in. we may prep, (administratively, spiritual, creatively, every way) and still see little to know fruit unless the Spirit of God chooses to reveal himself to people. I'm talking really reveal (not just get someone to buy into what we're selling).
wondered your thoughts on that-

js

Rachel · 1 year ago

It's been a little while since you posted this, Los...but it made me think about some significant issues, for sure. Coming from the angle of someone who has been in the band but rarely leading, I have thought of all these things often. As far as what I think...well, this isn't the time or place to talk about it. I try to avoid ridiculously long comments, anyhow.

But I wanted to thank you for writing this and being honest, when it could be so easy to let topics like this get swept under the rug. Rock on, Los.

Zack Arias · 1 year ago

Man Los, this is amazing. I heart you. Yeah, I just typed that. I'll get over it. Will you? :)

Cheers,
Zack

Cami · 1 year ago

Thanks for this-- "these" people have been CRUSHING my heart lately. You put into words what I want for so many (including myself) to grasp with their whole hearts.

davej · 1 year ago

yeah, that whole "go and make disciples...teaching them everything i have commanded" part sometimes gets lost in the "go and get people to pray the prayer and then move on to someone else" translation...helping people move onward and upward is the hard part and definitely worth talking/thinking about...

scottiemills · 1 year ago

CONVICTED.

scottmills · 1 year ago

CONVICTED.

scootermc · 1 year ago

ouch. . .